Opinions and Info on Fireplaces

[N80]

The recent discussion on kindling wood got me to thinking about fireplaces again. My home has gas logs and for the most part that suits me fine. A few years ago I built a simple 1000 sq ft log cabin on my property. I do not have the skills to build or install a fireplace and we did not have the money for one at the time of building. In the desgin we left wall space for one and had a footing put in place where one will go. I still don't have the skills or the money for one but in the future would like to have one

I'd be interested in hearing folks opinions regarding fireplaces. I don't know anything about them. Is a true masonry one better than a pre-fab insert. How about the chimney? What are costs like for installing one after the house is built? I read a book once about an ideal fireplace design, out of New England, where it is tall and shallow. Anyone know anything about this design? I want to get it right because I've had too many poorly drawing fireplaces in my life and I do not want another one.

Any and all thoughts appreciated.

 

[RonMar]

I have heated with wood a good portion of my life. There is an old saying. Wood heat heats you twice. The first time is when you gather/process it and the second is when you burn it. Do you want the fire for heat or atmosphere/astetics? A fireplace is old school, looks great when done correctly and has a pleasing view of the flame. Unfortunatly it is really quite inefficient as it dosn't burn hot enough to do it cleanly and dosn't have much control of the airflow. Most of the heat goes up the flue and this airflow up the flue is drawn from the home which ultimately means drawing more cold outside air into the living space. To heat the same space, a fireplace will burn substantually more wood than a stand alone wood stove or insert. Benjamin franklin patented the first standalone woodstove made of cast iron. it was like a fireplace but stood away from the wall. Unfortunatly it still didn't have very good air control with it's folding front doors, but it was a world better than the basic fireplace. His primary marketing was that it used less fuel to heat the room. I grew up with a franklin stove in our home in central Oregon and it was a hungry beast, but when the power was out, you could heat, cook, melt large quantities of snow into water to drink and flush the toilets with.

Wood Stove: More heat exchanger surface in the room so better heat transfer. Less fire visibility, but most modern stoves have large windows for a pretty nice view of the fire. They have better air control and in most cases, the combustion air can be piped directly to the stove so it dosn't draw room air and pump it up the chimney. Most have catalytic converters or some secondary combustion process which really cuts down on the visible pollution, even when running at lower combustion levels. Much more heat into room for fuel consumed.

Unless you like running a chainsaw, axe and or wood splitter, both the fireplace and woodstove have a considerable ammount of background work involved.

I recently switched to a newer option... Pellet stove. Good view of flame, easy pushbutton operation, pre-processed fuel, NO wood associated insects or mess brought into home. Downside is that they have a little background noise with 2 running blowers and an auger motor and require electrical power to run. Unless you have a ready supply of "free" wood on your land, you will need to purchase wood(and still do some processing and stacking). My free supply was getting to the point of no longer meeting my needs. I figured that if I had to import wood, it would be better to do so in as pre-processed a form as possible. Firewood that is pre-cut, split, delivered and stacked is pretty expensive. The only thing I do with the pellets now is stack the bags in my storage area. By weight, I am also moving quite a bit less material as the pellet puts out heat at a much more efficient rate due to it's forced air heat exchanger which is about 75% efficient(750 out of every 1000 BTU's burnt is transfered to the room). I like mine so far after a little over a year.

My .02

 

[nolefan]

The fireplace you described is called a Rumford fireplace if i'm not mistaken. I love a wood burning fire but was worried about safety, efficiency, cleanliness, etc. . My builder recommended a locally manufactured wood stove with a glass front that gives me the best of both worlds. I get to see and enjoy the burning fire but don't have to worry about burning embers popping and virtually no smoke smell. Puts out a bunch of heat as well. They featured the Rumford fireplaces on "This Old House" several times and if I am not mistaken there are kits you can buy to build yourself.

 

[scott_vt]

Afternoon George,
First off I think you were smart to have that footing put in while you were building your cabin !

Second I know next to nothing about building a fireplace correctly ! I do have a small amount of masonry skills but I dont think I would attempt a project that large on my own.

I have a fireplace in my Ct home and used it for a few years but it was always a pain when you still had a fire going when you wanted to go to bed, especially when its cold out. Spelled cold air down the flue after you went to sleep If I had the same situation as you I would build a masonry chimney, but would just install a thimble on the interior for woodstove pipe. The wall could be quite decorative with stone or brick along with a mantel, just no fireplace opening.

I have looked at these woodstoves and when I put the addition on the back of the Vt house I would like to install one of these units. They provide great heat and are very pleasant to look at!
HearthStone Wood Stoves

BTW In my Ct home I put a closed gas insert stove ito that opening and it works out quite well. I also have a woodstove in the basement to help alleviate the heating costs.

 

[turnkey4099]

The fireplace is called a Rumsford I think, someone else has it as Rumford. A search will probably turn it up by either version.

Never built one myself but did a _lot_ of research back when. Building one is not a DIY project unless you are an accomplished mason to beging with. From the hearth on up to at least the breast every row of brick is sloped and that slope changes several times. Lots, and I do mean _lots_ of trimming brick.

Efficiency - worst possible way to heat a room other than building a fire in an open pit in the floor. They are efficient in only one way - getting rid of wood. Even when they are out with the damper shut, they are leaking air up the chimney (unless you stuff a chunk of insulation up there).

Atmosphere - yep, that is where a fireplace shines, A jug of wine, bearskin rug, fire and thou!

Harry K

 

[hazmat]

Unfortunately masonry fireplaces are becomming a lost art.

A couple questions -

Is this fireplace & chimney going on an outside wall or interior?

Do you care about outside aesthics of a brick/stone chimney?

How are you going to "use" this fireplace - ambiance or heat?

If the chimney is going to be exterior to the cabin for it's entire length, I'd strongly suggest you go with the insulated metal type. For best performance box it in with an insulated frame.

Here's a link with a description of how chimneys work woodheat home

A masonry chimney on the exterior of the house (in addition to being expensive) is not going to "draw" well. The large thermal load of the brick/stone will not let it warm up quickly when you do build a fire, causing smoke in the house until the chimney warms up. "Priming" the flue with newspaper helps a little, but you've still got that thermal load.

I've got a woodstove connected to an exterior metal chimney. If the chimney is cold, I can prime it with a single sheet of newspaper (which produces some smoke in the house). If the stove is still warm, I can build a fire w/o any draft issues. I do get a fair amount of creosote build up, the smoke condenses before it gets out of the chimney because the chimney, while drawing, isn't as hot as it should be. This is an annoyance that requires cleaning a couple times during the season, vs. a typical once per year.

My Brother & Father in Laws both have exterior masonry chimneys. Neither one draws well, and there is always a bit of smoke in the house if they use them (which they rarely do).

The best performing, as far as draft is concerned, fireplaces I've used always seem to be prefab units in ski condos that have a metal chimney running up the middle of the condo.

My parent's have a 6 foot wide rumford style fireplace in the center of their cape style farmhouse in Maine. That thing throws more heat than any fireplace I've every experienced. I'll try to remember to post a pic when I get home. Check them out here Rumford Fireplaces

 

[mjarrels]

We build a 32 foot tall chinmey with a fireplace in the living room (burned 3 times in 8 years) and a flu for a stove in the basement. Cost to build was anywhere from $3,000.00 to $12,000... guess which one we went with. This was all done with the new construction. I would go with a nice woodstove setup if it were me. Fireplace chimney in the living room currently for the birds... thats where the nest are each year.

mark

 

[dmccarty]

George,

The fireplace design, as previously mentioned, is a Rumsford.

I would NOT have a fireplace unless it had an insert. Fireplaces are not supposed to be that efficient heaters. We put in a wood stove which we use to heat our 2400 sf house. It does the job, though the kids rooms, which are the farthest from the stove, can drop to 65 degrees when the temps go into the 10/20s. Our side of the house will be between 69-72 in our bedroom to 75-80 in the living room with the stove. We also have 10 foot high ceilings which does soak up the heat. I'm sure we would be warmer without that extra volume to heat.

Here is a linked to our stove, Obadiah's - Osburn 2200 Bay window woodstove. We bought from this company and they where very helpful. The stove is nice for the view. We have the 1800 stove. The link on the page does not show the 1800 but shows the 2200. The specs are slightly different but the stove heat about the same and they look the same.

We have a stainless steel double wall chimney. It was not cheap but its a lot cheaper than one made of brick. I think stainless is the way to go. Seems like the masonary chimney's have problems over time and are expensive to replace. If I had to replace mine its just not going to be a big deal. Masonary takes up alot of space. Stainless does not. Seems like on This Old House if its an old house with a flue its being replaced or lined.

Our chimney runs up internally in the house, through the ceiling, has two 45 degree bends to get around the roof ridge and then out the roof. Pretty simple. Course the installer did not get it quite right so the outside chimney is at an angle that we will fix one day. The Chimney sweep said he can fix it easy.

So use a wood stove and put in a stainless steel double wall chimney. Its the cheapest installation cost and will save money long term.

On the flip side if you have to pay for the wood I'm not sure a wood stove is cheap. I spend alot of time making firewood. But I have lots of downed trees that need to be cleaned up anyway so its only an incremental cost to cut them into rounds and split them. The cost to burn big logs is high if I was just cleaning up and hauling them off would be very expensive. My FIL paid something like $600 for firewood to heat his house. I'm not sure that made money sense. I doubt he would have spent $100 for six months to run the heat pump. But they like to watch the fire, like I do, and if they loose power they still are warm which is worth something.

I have thought of putting in a corn stove for supplementary heat at night or when we are out but I can't see spending the money. The conversations I have seen on TBN regarding the rising cost of wood pellets scares me away from pellet stoves.

Later,
Dan

 

[Highbeam]

I own a single story home with a realtively ideal interior masonry fireplace which was converted with a large (480lb) Lopi EPA certified insert to make it a primary source of heat. It kicks butt. Plenty of draft and a nice big "real" hearth. Part of the conversion was lining the clay tile chimney with a 6" diameter stainless steel flex pipe to insure a stout draft, easy cleaning, and a safety improvment. The insert doesn't put out much heat unless the noisy blowers are running. It is not ideal.

The ideal situation is a freestanding woodstove in the main central living area with a metal pipe straight out the top all the way to the ceiling at the highest point and then piercing the roof at the roof's highest point. The hearth is made with brick or stone veneer attached to the existing wall. This stove setup will draft well, heat well, and not need a blower or electricity to heat your home. It is also the cheapest installation requiring minimal triple wall pipe and minimal masonry work. Price in my area for the whole shebang is 3500$-4000$ depending on stove and height.

Forget about a masonry chimney. The price for the chimney alone is easily more than 10,000$ and in the end your heater is no better, actually worse, than a proper freestanding stove. Masonry chimneys are for the birds.

I have been running my insert 24/7 for the last couple of months since moving into this new-to-me house and I really enjoy the heat. Pellet stoves are very expensive and the whole setup is about the same cost as a woodstove BUT try going and buying pellets right now. It won't be easy, some type of shortage is causing rationing in my region. I don't need that. I would rather by cordwood from some guy on the street who will use the money to either buy booze or to feed his family.

 

[N80]

Thanks for all the tips and info guys. I guess a couple of points of clarification are in order.

First, this is a hunting cabin used on weekends etc. We are currently heating with a kerosene heater and one of those electric/oil radiators in each bedroom and this has worked well. In the next couple of years we will probably get central heat and air (more for the AC than the heat.) So, the fireplace will be for heat and ambience.

I know woodstoves are much more efficient but that's not what I'm after. When I mentioned an insert I wasn't talking about a woodstove for the fireplace I was talking baout those pre-fab metal fireplaces. I've had a couple of those in different homes and they work fine. Not wild about how they look (and sound).

It will be on an outside wall.

It does not need to be fancy at all.

The chimney can be whatever is cheapest, I don't even care if it is a bare pipe on the outside of the house.

I'm really interested in the Rumsford fireplace. I had a great little book about it and can't find it. I'll keep looking. The book made a good case for its efficient heating (for a fireplace) and excellent draw. Plus, my grandmother's house (which is about 80 years old) had a fireplace in every room. Most of them were fine but there was a tiny one in the sitting room. It was made for burning coal and was probably no more than 6 inches deep and had a basket like grate for holding coal. Well, you could put one little log in it and it would run you out of the room with the heat. Its proportions were _very_ similar to the Rumsford formula.

With our mild winters and weekend use, wood supply is not a problem.

So I'm wondering if I can find a mason who can build a Rumsford style fireplace attached to a modern metal chimney that could be framed in?