opinions needed on weld re-repair

[Dargo]

Sounds to me like you're set. I don't see anything here that I'd even remotely consider bad advice; all good. All that's left is to get 'er dun!

 

[Egon]

A hard to replace item!

I'd suggest a good cleanup of the piece in question and then do a non destructive test to determine were all the flaws lie.

|: Non-Desctructive Testing :|: IMAGINEERING Metal Finishing Technologies :|: South Bend, Indiana, USA :|

After this do a thorough job of grinding out the defective areas, preheat the piece using a propane torch, [ rosebud too hot ] and do the welding. Keep post heat on the piece for several hours to alleviate any stresses. Then do a non destructive recheck.

 

[Soundguy]

Sounds to me like you're set. I don't see anything here that I'd even remotely consider bad advice; all good. All that's left is to get 'er dun!

I'll start working on her some more on monday afternoon.

I already took the wire cup to her today and removed all paint from within 4" of any weld/crack areas... got sparks.. so I'm almost deffinately sure it is a stamping and not a casting.. especially since it is so thin in some areas, and from looking at the putton sticking out from it.. it is actually extruded looking.. not welded in, or cast solid.. etc.

I'll v-cut her on monday afternoon, and lay some metal.

I've heard i might do good with a root pass of hot 6011 with a top pass of 7018ac.

This sound right?

Soundguy

 

[3RRL]

I've heard i might do good with a root pass of hot 6011 with a top pass of 7018ac.

This sound right?

Soundguy

Excelent advice IMHO.

 

[Dargo]

I didn't ask how old that part is. If by chance it's cast steel (there is such thing), you'd have to use only the 7018 with a preheat. Cast steel will give you sparks just like regular steel. I rebuilt a cultipacker made in 1921 earlier this year and it had a lot of cast steel in it. I got lazy on the very last weld and didn't "post-heat" it with the torch and cover it in sand. It cracked the cast steel right next to my weld. I had to heat it up again, re-weld the cracked area, keep it heated for a few minutes and then bury that end in my little sandbox. The cast steel needs a low hydrogen rod like the 7018 and slow cooling.

If it's just regular mild steel, your 6011 will give you good penetration. If you follow with a 7018, make sure that it's never been wet. If it has, it will produce welds that look like bird doo. Actually, if you want it to have a good appearance, you can just follow with a 6013. It is about the easiest electrode to use for good weld appearance. It won't be technically strong, but it's been very rare that I see a 60 electrode weld fail where a 70 would have made a huge difference. As you know, the difference is a 60k tensile strength vs a 70k tensile strength weld. Either is most likely stronger than your base metal. If something I've welded breaks again, it's almost always somewhere other than where I've welded before. Also, it is more forgiving than the 7018 if there is any imperfections in the steel itself or if there is any tiny rust particles in any small cracks. But, if you've run a 7018 a bit before and you have good clean steel, you should be able to lay a nice bead with a 7018. I'd say "your choice". If you don't like the way it looks with the 7018, stop, and use a 6013.

Oh, I forgot, if you don't have the lovely, overpriced, text books from a welding class, here is a good very basic guide for electrode use: WELDING ELECTRODES It doesn't go into great detail, but I don't think great detail is what you need right now. And, since you saw sparks, it's either regular mild steel or cast steel. With the absence of any casting marks (you'll have to be the eyes on that), I'd assume it's normal mild steel. And, BTW, have fun! The good part is that if you screw up you can grind it off and do it again. Trust me, with the perfectionist my dad is (over 40 years professional welding), I have perfected the art of grinding.

 

[Soundguy]

I own 2 grinders! One with a cutoff wheel.. and the other with a 'erasor'!

I did see sparks. Metalis very pitted from being 50-60 ys old.. so old cast makrks could have disappeared.. but deffinately could be cast steel. ford -did- use cast steel on some of it's parts.

If i had my choice.. I'd rather weld cast steel vs cast iron any day. And mild steel if I had any say in the matter.

I buy my 7018ac in small quantity.. like 1# at a time...sealed containers.. I got 1 unopened box of it.. should be plenty for topdressing aftert he 6011. I'll take the advice. if it don't look like it is laying out ok.. I'll switch to 6013.. I got about 5# of that in a resealable tube.. and 10# of 6011 in assorted size to play with.

Hopefully it all pans out. I'll clamp her inthe vice, v-grind,preheat, weld, post heat.. guess that's about all I can do... if it looks like she is going south.. I guess I can start hunting another bracket!!

I also plan on scabbing on a bit of 1/2" x 1" bar stock on either side of the bracket where I have good clearance. ( unless someone sees a problem in this... )

For this patching.. I'm using all new bar stock.. no scrap pile reduex's.. trying to keep as much rust out o fthe joint as possible.

Soundguy

 

[thingy]

Soundman,you need me to come down and do the inspection for you?,might need some help so maybe egon could assist me.
First I'll give you a simple little welding test,,[I got procedures],,then we'll get you certified,,,,than after you do the prep work I'll p.t. it,,monitor the preheat as you weld it,and p.t. after your done,,,,than [at your option],we could have it x-rayed. I'll write reports and give you a certification,[if you pass that is],,,my rates are very reasonable,,let me know and we can work out the details,,thingy

 

[sandman2234]

Read KennethBrown post again. If the ends of the crack don't end in the bolt holes, or if they start on the other side of the bolt holes, the part is going to continue to fail if you don't stop the running of the crack. You might add enough extra metal to stop it, but the best way is to drill the end of the hole as was suggested.
Only reason I re-mentioned was due to you not mentioning it.
David from jax
Since if is a hard part to find, while you have it off, consider drawing a template of it and hanging in the barn so in case the worse happens, you won't have to resurrect the piece, just grab the template and remake it. Kind of one of those insurance plans. If you have it, you will never need it. If you don't have it, you'll need it soon.
David from jax

 

[thingy]

Soundguy,if you hire me and egon,you won't need to drill any holes,,,ok,,you could go to a welding supply place and ask for a set of dye penatrant cans,,,set consists of three spray cans,cleaner,red dye,and white powder,,what you do,is prep area,[grind it like you are ready to weld],,than follow directions on sides of cans,,[stuff goes a long way and is cheap,and is the best way,bar none, for finding cracks open to the surface],if there is a crack,,you will find it,works on steel,cast iron,alumium.
Course,,you could still hire me,I'd give you a discount,thingy

 

[thingy]

Well,I'll give a couple more cents worth here,[what the heck]. The thing about drilling a hole at crack end is,you can't sometimes see where that crack ends,[most of time,and you can't be certain]and cracks branch,,plus its a job to drill a hole through 3/8 inch steel,,the dye penatrant was made to find cracks,very simple process,been used for 100 years or so,,,dye soaks into crack,,,,wipe off all dye on surface,,spray white power over area,,penatrant is aborsed by white powder,[penatrant thats still in crack],you see it,and grind it out,than do it again till you don't see indication.
As far as how to weld it,,just depends on how deep crack goes,if it don't go all the way through,no need to double bevel area,you got to what they call,chase the crack first,,once you get the crack out,,,you prepare joint to be welded,by grinding wider area untill you can get a bead in bottom of groove,,than clean between each pass and fill,and cap. If it goes all the way through than a double bevel [half on each side] is the way to do it if you can get to other side,if not,you just bevel,widen as you need put a root pass in,,fill and cap.
As far as to which process,,stick is the way to go or flux core,,not mig,,not saying you can't do it with mig,,its just if you don't do it right,,all your work will be in vain.
Now as far as which rods,,,the reason generally they say use say a 6010 root and 7018 out,,is cause the 7018 is not made for running roots and 6010 gets better penatration,,,7018 has 70 psi tensile 60 rods have 60,000,,that piece of steel or cast,,doesn't have more than maybe 35,000 psi,,,so,,any rod you chose will beat the steel.
If you double bevel it that means you can get to both sides,,,thing to do there is to put a couple of passes with what ever rod you chose on one side,than on other side,do what is called,backgouge,,grind down to solid good shiny metal,,,weld a few passes on that side,and go back to other side,repeat.
If you can only get to one side,after preparing groove as needed,try to get full penatration on first[root]pass,,clean,grind as you need,than fill and cap.
As far as preheat,yeah heat it up to 200-300 degrees,that gets the mosture out and oil and stuff,,but once you start welding on something this small,and made out of carbon steel,[we think],thats all you need to do.thingy