Opinions please - Does the dealer owe me a new battery?
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diesel85
Veteran Member
Here's some info from a guy who works with LA/SLA/AGM batteries on a fairly regular basis:
Most auto batteries will be what's called short cycle/starting cycle. Meaning they have a higher cold cranking amperage (CCA) and cranking amperage (CA), versus their amp hour capacitance such as an AGM or deep cycle battery.
A battery is basically a capacitor; it stores electrons. Now, the main difference between a capacitor and a battery is the fact that batteries are way more chemically sensitive to discharge. Both can be damaged by overcharging conditions.
With a short cycle battery, deep discharging can damage the plates mostly from the fact that the plates are thinner, and sandwiched together in a membrane. This allows the transfer of ions to damage the plates, which are easier to damage. This is also known as sulfation (or lead sulfate crystals). The more damage occurs the longer the battery is held at deep discharge. Typically a battery of this type, that has been thoroughly discharged, will give a much shortened life span. You might be able to "revive" it by using a battery desulfator that injects a rippled current into the battery (HF AC current or a rippled DC current) at timed intervals. I've had mixed results when busting open old batteries and seeing what they looked like.
Deep cycle batteries (AGM included) are much better at discharging cycles, simply because the plates are usually thicker, solid, and contain other rare earth metals to help with the sulfation issue. AGM simply is the same as a deep cycle, but can also provide even longer lasting results by using a fiberglass mat that contains the lead substrate. These are mostly used in areas where there is a lot of vibration. However, manufacturers do make starting grade AGM batteries. I've got one; the Deka Intimidator.
As a rule of thumb: Short cycle/starting cycle batteries --- only discharge to ~50%. Deep cycle/AGM --- only discharge to ~20%.
So to go back to your concern -- Yes, discharging the battery flat did reduce it's life expectancy. Should you be concerned? No. Just use it till it doesn't work no more, then change it. UNLESS it is meant for critical applications such as fire/ambulance/police or other life safety device.
Most auto batteries will be what's called short cycle/starting cycle. Meaning they have a higher cold cranking amperage (CCA) and cranking amperage (CA), versus their amp hour capacitance such as an AGM or deep cycle battery.
A battery is basically a capacitor; it stores electrons. Now, the main difference between a capacitor and a battery is the fact that batteries are way more chemically sensitive to discharge. Both can be damaged by overcharging conditions.
With a short cycle battery, deep discharging can damage the plates mostly from the fact that the plates are thinner, and sandwiched together in a membrane. This allows the transfer of ions to damage the plates, which are easier to damage. This is also known as sulfation (or lead sulfate crystals). The more damage occurs the longer the battery is held at deep discharge. Typically a battery of this type, that has been thoroughly discharged, will give a much shortened life span. You might be able to "revive" it by using a battery desulfator that injects a rippled current into the battery (HF AC current or a rippled DC current) at timed intervals. I've had mixed results when busting open old batteries and seeing what they looked like.
Deep cycle batteries (AGM included) are much better at discharging cycles, simply because the plates are usually thicker, solid, and contain other rare earth metals to help with the sulfation issue. AGM simply is the same as a deep cycle, but can also provide even longer lasting results by using a fiberglass mat that contains the lead substrate. These are mostly used in areas where there is a lot of vibration. However, manufacturers do make starting grade AGM batteries. I've got one; the Deka Intimidator.
As a rule of thumb: Short cycle/starting cycle batteries --- only discharge to ~50%. Deep cycle/AGM --- only discharge to ~20%.
So to go back to your concern -- Yes, discharging the battery flat did reduce it's life expectancy. Should you be concerned? No. Just use it till it doesn't work no more, then change it. UNLESS it is meant for critical applications such as fire/ambulance/police or other life safety device.
CalG
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There is too much about wet cells to go into all of it, but....
The risk is that with discharge comes sulfation. Sulfation build up at the base of the plates can short them. Shorted cell suck.
The risk of charging a dead battery from the alternator is HEAT. Heat can warp plates, pressing two together and so shorting them. That sucks.
The risk of charging with a manual charge is over charging. You need to pay attention.
The risk of charging with a trickle charger or a battery maintainer is that not enough current is available to set up electrolyte circulation. That sucks too. I don't know how that transfers to gel cell or matrix batteries. Always something more to learn!.
I don't think that sucks ;-)
Bottom line, Hope for the best, plan for the worst, pick your battles.
The risk is that with discharge comes sulfation. Sulfation build up at the base of the plates can short them. Shorted cell suck.
The risk of charging a dead battery from the alternator is HEAT. Heat can warp plates, pressing two together and so shorting them. That sucks.
The risk of charging with a manual charge is over charging. You need to pay attention.
The risk of charging with a trickle charger or a battery maintainer is that not enough current is available to set up electrolyte circulation. That sucks too. I don't know how that transfers to gel cell or matrix batteries. Always something more to learn!.
I don't think that sucks ;-)
Bottom line, Hope for the best, plan for the worst, pick your battles.
Big Barn
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IMO the answer is no BUT I agree that Rustyiron provided a very good option.
I would try that.
rScotty
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If you have one of the newer chargers with a battery maintainer I don't think you have a problem. The lights were a constant load, but not an extremely high load. I'd simply charge it up and use it. If it has a problem I expect it will show up during the battery warranty period. After all, it was a dead battery before it was charged initially.....
I'd say that the dealer's good will is worth a battery. And it sounds like a simple oversight. See if it takes a full charge. I bet it will.
My opinion, drop it. Let the dealer know you are going to drop it if you fee like you have to do something. But don't let other people's simple mistakes rule your response.
But also, do keep the warranty handy....
And always use one of the new style battery minders with a maintainer circuit. They definitely increase battery life.
rScotty
moship
Veteran Member
Answer to OP痴 question #1.
When a battery is discharged below approximately 10.5 volts the battery痴 capacity is significantly reduced. No type of charger will bring it back to 100% capacity. Will it charge it, yes. But capacity will not be the same. (Think reserve capacity)
This is a huge cost problem with most automotive OEM痴 (or their battery supplier) and today痴 cars with their constant battery draw while sitting on dealer lots.
When a battery is discharged below approximately 10.5 volts the battery痴 capacity is significantly reduced. No type of charger will bring it back to 100% capacity. Will it charge it, yes. But capacity will not be the same. (Think reserve capacity)
This is a huge cost problem with most automotive OEM痴 (or their battery supplier) and today痴 cars with their constant battery draw while sitting on dealer lots.
Sawyer Rob
Super Member
Are you sure you got that right?
The place that rebuilds my starters and alternators says that he "averages" three dead alts a week from folks boosting a dead vehicle, and then letting the alt charge it up from dead!
Guess what my dad did, and why I was in the repair shop with a dead alt.?!!
SR
CalG
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I have not seen this problem manifest. Is it something the new car dealers keep to themselves? 10 years is very typical battery life for my many vehicles. (OK by me) But I have not purchased a new car with an OEM battery in a long long while.
I would think a "huge cost problem" would be well shared knowledge.
rScotty
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Yes, the modern "smart chargers" examine the state of the battery they are hooked to and modify their charging accordingly. They even provide special high frequency pulses to reduce sulfation. Once charged, they go into maintenance mode. All car dealers have them.
I can attest to their having restored serveral of my deep cycle and marine batteries to full capacity when I thought they were goners.
rScotty
Thanks for all the great responses. Lot's of info and insight on this thread.
I called the dealer today and in a very friendly way told him what I think happened. I told him I planned to try to charge it, but I asked if there was a warranty on the battery. He said he wasn't sure, but he basically "owned" the error and said if need be he would replace the battery. I told him I hoped that wouldn't be necessary, and that I would let him know how it worked on Thursday after it was charged. It was a nice conversation, and the dealer apologized and was completely honest and respectful. I'll update this thread Thursday.
I called the dealer today and in a very friendly way told him what I think happened. I told him I planned to try to charge it, but I asked if there was a warranty on the battery. He said he wasn't sure, but he basically "owned" the error and said if need be he would replace the battery. I told him I hoped that wouldn't be necessary, and that I would let him know how it worked on Thursday after it was charged. It was a nice conversation, and the dealer apologized and was completely honest and respectful. I'll update this thread Thursday.