Our Dependencies

Anonymous Poster · Jan 13, 2003

Macher:
1) Killing the messenger won't alter the reality of the message.

Whoops! I didn't mean to kill the messanger! Didn't even mean for that pin I jabbed him with to get more than slightly below the surface of his skin! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Grimreaper...I can hear what you are saying, but remember words can just as easily misrepresent reality as they can be accurate in their representation of it.

Anyone can come to believe anything. Whatever we decide is right/correct/real in our minds, may or may not be in reality.

Society has institutions full of people who have set their own standards and lived [or tried to] by them. Have you proven to yourself, without question, that everything you believe in your innermost self is absolutely correct in the universal sense? I have not and don't think I will ever be able to.

Frankly, as I type this I see nearly all our TBN brothers thinking...

OH NO! Not these guys again! /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

Be happy to discuss this more off line. Send me an email and I will get back to you privately.

To mimic that guy on the cable TV channel, now I'll give you the last word.../w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Bill in Pgh, PA

Wingnut · Jan 13, 2003

Actually ... I didn't like Anthem that much ... isn't that strange? And I need to read Atlas Shrugged again ... it's been too many years.
"My brothers keeper" obviously has much broader implication to you than to me. I'm a little bit more literal ... I have one brother, and two sisters. I also feel responsibility, albeit much less, to my wife's children.
I feel absolutely no responsibility for anyone outside my immediate family.
gasp .... I also feel lthat mankind is in a very serious overpopulation situation and therefore is not a precious commodity at all ... gasp ...
I guess I'm a crummy conservative ... but then I dislike labels anyway ...

Anonymous Poster · Jan 13, 2003

Macher:
1) Indeed, it is easier to misrepresent reality with "words" than through direct perception. That is why there is a branch of philosophy known as epistemology which works out how we know what we know, what are the rules for determining truth, etc.
2) Obviously, mere belief, in and of itself, doesn't prove anything. Again, there are methods to determine truth-waste of time here. But, if I may, a brief hint: "scientia praedictum est."
3) Again, all, issues of right/wrong, etc. involve some standard of value, explicit or implicit, against which they are judged. Who is to determine those standards if not the individual? Majority rule? Osmosis from "society"? your preacher? Someone decides. If not you, then you are accepting someone else's standards.
4) Am I certain? Of course. And nothing I have learned, discovered, saw, experienced over the decades has changed those basic principles. Have I been mistaken about the application of those principles? Of course. Do I understand more today than years ago. Hopefully! Do I hope to learn more before I die? Of course. But the principles have not changed and cannot because they are based on reality. Actually, those basic principles were outlined in an essay I did about 10 years ago.
5) Out of any group of people, some may find an interest, some may grasp a glimmer of what I am saying, some will not get it at all, many will be bored, and, perhaps, a few might find a voice for their unarticulated beliefs.
JEH

WingNut:
I didn't mean Anthem was better than Atlas, just that for a 12 year old (which was, I seem to recall, how old you said you were when you first read it), Anthem is a easier introduction. Atlas is a bit "heavy" for a 12 year old. Actually, I met Rand back in the early 1970s. Used to fly to Boston every year for her one public appearance at that time. Mind like a steel trap.
JEH

Wingnut · Jan 13, 2003

Atlas is a bit "heavy" for a 12 year old heck yes! Actually a bit heavy for anyone ... but I was a 12 year old who'd finished Asimov's Foundation Trilogy and Tolkiens Ring trilogy ...s o I was ready for something different ...
That's what happens when you're a geeky, ultra-shy kid who likes classical music, I guess ....

Anonymous Poster · Jan 13, 2003

Grimreaper...

Darn...now I wish I didn't give you the last word!!! /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

Nice blue tractor, by the way. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Bill

putty · Jan 14, 2003

Well I have to agree with you Wingnut my show is slipping./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I have learned a some valuable lessons here about communication I will never forget, 1) How people perceive your words in a medium like this, 2) never defend an idea based on emotion without ample time to word things proper because emotions leave you open for many twists and turns, 3) I have learned a lot about myself. Ranchman , although everything I said is very true, trying to make maximum use of my words in minimum time is dangerous,I can see now how it looks now. Wingnut, you are right about the management and union leaders, last strike I learned a lot about who is for who and about the people in leadership - maybe they need a little more emotion? The working man I will defend everytime , I will just get better at it./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

cowboydoc · Jan 14, 2003

The working man I will defend everytime , I will just get better at it.

I don't think any person on this board wouldn't defend the working man. Heck most everyone on this board will defend any man that puts in an honest days work. There's just as many "working men" as "professional men" who are lazy and that work hard. Most of us here don't draw the lines that you did. To us it doesn't matter if you're a UPS driver or a chemical engineer. The class lines aren't drawn like you drew them. I don't care if a person is a house cleaner or a corporate bigshot. I have friends all along the line and don't think one is any better than the other. Same way here on the board. I think what you should be so quick not to do in the future is to judge people.

BTW the reason I say this is that it's happened with myself as well. I jump to conclusions or write something quick without thinking. I still do it but I try not to.

MikePA · Jan 14, 2003

The working man...
Greetings, putty. Would you define what you mean by this phrase?

I know I run into communication problems when I assume others have the same definitions I do.

Chuck52 · Jan 14, 2003

Putty,

Sounds like you think you stepped in it and are trying to make nice. Good for you. Many of us on this forum have managed to submit booboos, and some of us even acknowlege them. It is remarkably easy to use all inclusive terms you don't really intend as such in a quickly framed electronic message, and in a really diverse group like TBN, such forms of usage are likely to offend someone. Some of these threads have gone on for so long and gotten so confusing that there have been some instances where I swear, it seemed to me that one fellow would be saying, in effect, "I know you're a good guy and I respect your opinion and I'm sorry I framed that comment that way", and the response would be, "How dare you say something like that to me you miserable SOB!" At about that point, the thread will disappear thanks to the higher powers we like to call the moderators.

Anyway, I, as a "Professional", think I know what you meant all along and wasn't offended. Now if you'd said anything about my poor old L210, we'd have to have words.

Chuck

Egon · Jan 14, 2003

This thread has become so confusing That a Committee should be formed to extract the salient facts and publish them. Perhaps one of the moderators could help with the intial setup.

Perhaps we should form a committee to pick the committee first as without properly picking a committee the end result may be flawed requireing another committee to determine how and where the flaws occured and making suggestions on how to alleviate these flaws.

Egon