I fully agree with you sawdust, I am not an college educated man but I have eyes that work quite well. I have had to work a paying job since I was nine years old and I know how to work. In my line of work I see how other people work, their work habits and work times. It would amaze you if you really knew how little the doctors, lawyers, polotitians, CEO's really do work. Yes, I know they go to work for eight or maybe ten hours a day but if you saw how much work they get done would make the GM janitors want a raise. I am in my thirties and I have school buddies that are still going to school, man was I an idiot being a productive member of society all these years. Here is my plan if I get to live another life- be born to a family that is moderate(does'nt have to be rich) finish H.S. go to college ,and here is where the pretending to work is learned ,if you are'nt born to a rich family then maybe you have to live on top ramen- no stress done it before - but at least I don't have to do any real work, do that for ten years through my twenties so, at this point I still have no clue about the real world, then get on with a co. on the laurels of my degree, do actual work for maybe five years and then the money starts coming in and the work slows down, all the while thinking I deserve it because I worked soooo hard getting through school, or maybe even better I will go into polotics in my thirties that way I can use that incredible work ethic and vast knowledge of the real world to effect the lives of millions of other good hard working people, you know (all the people who are'nt educated )I will really be feeling top notch about myself. I love my family very much ,I come from a very religous family and I am a happy man with three wonderfull kids so please don't think that I am an unhappy man , I have worked very hard in life and I have a deep sense of pride. Cowboydoc if you think this directed at you you are right , I have one simple question that always enters my mind and you can be honest with me I can take it and still go on with a friendly relationship- What is an educated person?
Our Dependencies
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Putty,
I have worked away from home since April 1977,I have worked for a major oil company for 22 years in a plant that makes products from the oil company by products.We are a non union plant with contracted union maintenance,boilermakers/electricians/millwrights/pipefitters.These guys are not uneducated,they go to a trade school and learn there trade's and then work as an apprentice for 2 years,and these guys are among the best workers and know more about what they are doing,so not all union members are non educated...Now I am an operator non -union and I make more than these guys do hourly and benefit wise.I had some college and I work side by side with some some operators that have a degree but never found a job that suits there degree.
Non educated hmmmm...I have seen some engineers(not all)that come straight from college into the plant and I wonder what school they went to,they are just kids and far from adding value to the company.
I always thought they should have to work out in the operations unit doing some shift work for a couple of years and finding out what makes the place really tick and get a REAL education backed with experience before they get a cozy little office to lay around in.
Management.....I do not want to go there right now....I could start another thread......
I have worked away from home since April 1977,I have worked for a major oil company for 22 years in a plant that makes products from the oil company by products.We are a non union plant with contracted union maintenance,boilermakers/electricians/millwrights/pipefitters.These guys are not uneducated,they go to a trade school and learn there trade's and then work as an apprentice for 2 years,and these guys are among the best workers and know more about what they are doing,so not all union members are non educated...Now I am an operator non -union and I make more than these guys do hourly and benefit wise.I had some college and I work side by side with some some operators that have a degree but never found a job that suits there degree.
Non educated hmmmm...I have seen some engineers(not all)that come straight from college into the plant and I wonder what school they went to,they are just kids and far from adding value to the company.
I always thought they should have to work out in the operations unit doing some shift work for a couple of years and finding out what makes the place really tick and get a REAL education backed with experience before they get a cozy little office to lay around in.
Management.....I do not want to go there right now....I could start another thread......
cowboydoc
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All I have to say to you putty is that you're welcome anyday to come and see just how little work I do. If you think school is easy you're welcome to go try. If you'd like to sacrifice 12 years of your life, after high school, to become a doctor go for it. Your comment about having to be borne into a middle class family is a joke. I went to school with kids who came from nothing. There are loans, grants, etc. Anyone in this country that wants to get an education there is the money or the loans to do it so dont' even try and use that as a copout. As far as not working in school, hardly. I busted my tail and worked all through school. In the summers I worked 12-16 hour days at home on the ranch to help pay my grandparents back for the money they were giving me for school. The time I wasn't working I was studying for boards or preparing for the next year. And breaks at school. Those just let you get caught up on everything else or fly somewhere to take a review for boards.
In undergrad I had a football scholarship. I paid my own way there. Anyone that thinks college athletes don't work for what they get better think again. I never had any free time in school. In undergrad any free minute I had was studying or training. You don't get into grad. school unless you are near a 4.0. Then there were the wonderful MCAT's. Take two months or more of your life and basically study 20 hours a day seven days a week. Then you actually get to school. Well good luck if there's very many days that you do sleep even four hours a day. Let's see then you have your USMLE boards to pass. Figure on studying for those for six months at a time and don't plan on sleeping or having any kind of a life. Basically take everything you've learned out of some 200 or better textbooks and probably a 100,000 or more pages of information and you dang well better know any part of it verbatim. You don't pass them you don't go on. You take a couple of those type of exams. You don't get passing grades in school you're done. If you don't think school is real work you are sadly mistaken. I'd take those 16 hour days on the ranch anyday compared to studying 16 hours.
Then let's say you actually get past that. Well I won't even go into the residency process. I put my whole life on hold for 12 years. There wasn't time for a relationship. There wasn't time to go fishing with my buddies or anything else. There wasn't time for a family or anything that you enjoyed those years. Basically you take those years of your life and school is it. There is no time for anything else. Then you get done and you are on average $150,000 in the hole from school, testing, etc. Then work another four - six years to start making a good income.
As far as amazing how little professionals work you have no clue. Most of the patients that I treat have numerous sick days every year, two - four weeks of vacation. They work an eight hour day and they are done. There's nothing to take home. There are no middle of the night calls. There are no weekend calls, etc. How would you like to sit down with your family for dinner or a game with your kids and get a call you ahve to leave. Do this 3-10 times a week on average and see how tired you get of it. You get a retirement from your company, you get half your social security paid, etc. etc. On your own as a professional you have none of that. You don't have sick days, you don't have vacation days. You take a day off you don't get paid. You pay 40-60% right off the top for expenses. Then when you do get paid you pay about 50% or more of every dollar to taxes. Do you have any idea the amount of paperwork alone that you have to do? No I didn't think so. A professional may only work eight hours as far as office hours go seeing patients and clients but you have no idea the amount of work that goes on behind the scenes. And all of this so that the avg. physician makes a little over a hundred grand a year. Then you tell me that a janitor deserves the same amount of pay? If that's your value system then what the heck incentive would anyone have to go through the absolute living heck to become a professional. Not even to mention the stress.
Would I do it again. Not on your life. What you have to give up, the amount of time that it takes, and then when you do make it you have people like yourself and others who say you don't deserve what you have and you don't work hard. Then you have the ins. companies which I won't even bother with here either. Then go to work everyday and know that if you even make one little mistake all that you've worked for could be gone. You get no mistakes in this business. Don't get me wrong I like being a doctor but the baggage that goes with it and the process to become one is not worth it for sure.
Now you ask about an educated person. An educated person is someone that one way or another has gone through an educational process. For some this can be an apprenticeship, for others this can be hands on training and working up the corporate ladder, for others it's a formal education. One of my good friends is a CEO for HON. They are a big company that deals in office furniture and such. He started out on the assembly line and has worked his way up the ladder. He only has a high school education. An incredibly smart man and invaluable to his company. He makes about ten times as much money as I do. I begrudge no man to rise up and succeed in this country. But when you give people jobs, raises, etc. that they don't deserve I have a real problem with that. Regardless of what you want to percieve and believe there has to be some sort of a hierarchy in society. I'm not saying that any person as a person is more important to society than any other person. What I am saying is that this country works and you have people willing to go through what it takes to become a professional or rise up a corporate ladder. They do this because there is incentive to do so. Most people do what they do because they want to be successful and they want to enjoy better things in life. There is nothing wrong with that. But when you start collapsing that system that rewards people based on their merits and what they do in work, school, etc. this whole system will collapse.
That is exactly what the govt. trys to do now. We push more and more to become a socialist society. People like yourself that don't value a person because they did go through what they did and think a janitor deserves the same pay as a doctor, lawyer, or any other profession where you had to work hard. I'm not saying that a professional is any better than any other person. But for you to say that professionals don't work hard is just absurd.
Lastly you say you are a deeply religious man. Well you're just like every other deeply religious man that I know that has to profess it, pretty hypocritical.
In undergrad I had a football scholarship. I paid my own way there. Anyone that thinks college athletes don't work for what they get better think again. I never had any free time in school. In undergrad any free minute I had was studying or training. You don't get into grad. school unless you are near a 4.0. Then there were the wonderful MCAT's. Take two months or more of your life and basically study 20 hours a day seven days a week. Then you actually get to school. Well good luck if there's very many days that you do sleep even four hours a day. Let's see then you have your USMLE boards to pass. Figure on studying for those for six months at a time and don't plan on sleeping or having any kind of a life. Basically take everything you've learned out of some 200 or better textbooks and probably a 100,000 or more pages of information and you dang well better know any part of it verbatim. You don't pass them you don't go on. You take a couple of those type of exams. You don't get passing grades in school you're done. If you don't think school is real work you are sadly mistaken. I'd take those 16 hour days on the ranch anyday compared to studying 16 hours.
Then let's say you actually get past that. Well I won't even go into the residency process. I put my whole life on hold for 12 years. There wasn't time for a relationship. There wasn't time to go fishing with my buddies or anything else. There wasn't time for a family or anything that you enjoyed those years. Basically you take those years of your life and school is it. There is no time for anything else. Then you get done and you are on average $150,000 in the hole from school, testing, etc. Then work another four - six years to start making a good income.
As far as amazing how little professionals work you have no clue. Most of the patients that I treat have numerous sick days every year, two - four weeks of vacation. They work an eight hour day and they are done. There's nothing to take home. There are no middle of the night calls. There are no weekend calls, etc. How would you like to sit down with your family for dinner or a game with your kids and get a call you ahve to leave. Do this 3-10 times a week on average and see how tired you get of it. You get a retirement from your company, you get half your social security paid, etc. etc. On your own as a professional you have none of that. You don't have sick days, you don't have vacation days. You take a day off you don't get paid. You pay 40-60% right off the top for expenses. Then when you do get paid you pay about 50% or more of every dollar to taxes. Do you have any idea the amount of paperwork alone that you have to do? No I didn't think so. A professional may only work eight hours as far as office hours go seeing patients and clients but you have no idea the amount of work that goes on behind the scenes. And all of this so that the avg. physician makes a little over a hundred grand a year. Then you tell me that a janitor deserves the same amount of pay? If that's your value system then what the heck incentive would anyone have to go through the absolute living heck to become a professional. Not even to mention the stress.
Would I do it again. Not on your life. What you have to give up, the amount of time that it takes, and then when you do make it you have people like yourself and others who say you don't deserve what you have and you don't work hard. Then you have the ins. companies which I won't even bother with here either. Then go to work everyday and know that if you even make one little mistake all that you've worked for could be gone. You get no mistakes in this business. Don't get me wrong I like being a doctor but the baggage that goes with it and the process to become one is not worth it for sure.
Now you ask about an educated person. An educated person is someone that one way or another has gone through an educational process. For some this can be an apprenticeship, for others this can be hands on training and working up the corporate ladder, for others it's a formal education. One of my good friends is a CEO for HON. They are a big company that deals in office furniture and such. He started out on the assembly line and has worked his way up the ladder. He only has a high school education. An incredibly smart man and invaluable to his company. He makes about ten times as much money as I do. I begrudge no man to rise up and succeed in this country. But when you give people jobs, raises, etc. that they don't deserve I have a real problem with that. Regardless of what you want to percieve and believe there has to be some sort of a hierarchy in society. I'm not saying that any person as a person is more important to society than any other person. What I am saying is that this country works and you have people willing to go through what it takes to become a professional or rise up a corporate ladder. They do this because there is incentive to do so. Most people do what they do because they want to be successful and they want to enjoy better things in life. There is nothing wrong with that. But when you start collapsing that system that rewards people based on their merits and what they do in work, school, etc. this whole system will collapse.
That is exactly what the govt. trys to do now. We push more and more to become a socialist society. People like yourself that don't value a person because they did go through what they did and think a janitor deserves the same pay as a doctor, lawyer, or any other profession where you had to work hard. I'm not saying that a professional is any better than any other person. But for you to say that professionals don't work hard is just absurd.
Lastly you say you are a deeply religious man. Well you're just like every other deeply religious man that I know that has to profess it, pretty hypocritical.
hazmat
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Well Said Cowboydoc! As a doctor's son & with a couple college classmates who are just now starting their residences I know first hand what you say is correct.
My buddy compared financially his becoming a MD vs my being an engineer (Mechanical, not millionaire software guru). He figured after paying for med school, and making low bucks during his residency, then working as a primary care MD, he'd break even with me when we were 50. Nevermind he will have worked almost twice the amount of hours I did.
Putty, it's not too late. Stop hating everybody else, go to school. It sounds corny, but knowledge is power.
An education: whether it be high school, trade school, an aprrenticeship or college, will open many doors. The education will only open the door, it is up to you to get & keep the job with your work ethic etc.
My buddy compared financially his becoming a MD vs my being an engineer (Mechanical, not millionaire software guru). He figured after paying for med school, and making low bucks during his residency, then working as a primary care MD, he'd break even with me when we were 50. Nevermind he will have worked almost twice the amount of hours I did.
Putty, it's not too late. Stop hating everybody else, go to school. It sounds corny, but knowledge is power.
An education: whether it be high school, trade school, an aprrenticeship or college, will open many doors. The education will only open the door, it is up to you to get & keep the job with your work ethic etc.
Loges1
Silver Member
hazmat,
You said alot when you said work ethics. Or should I say lack of them. Thats what I see more and more of all the time. Something for nothing and keep it coming. People talk of greedy execs. wich there are plenty of, but what of all the people that the Gov. supports. Actually you and I support through our taxes. Roughly 20% of my income I never see. IMO thats truly greedy
It's tax time again, I just gotta blow a little steam.
You said alot when you said work ethics. Or should I say lack of them. Thats what I see more and more of all the time. Something for nothing and keep it coming. People talk of greedy execs. wich there are plenty of, but what of all the people that the Gov. supports. Actually you and I support through our taxes. Roughly 20% of my income I never see. IMO thats truly greedy
It's tax time again, I just gotta blow a little steam.
Egon
Epic Contributor
Doctors:
Basically 15 years of free slave labour not counting the work required in high school just to be consider for admission and then the "on call " days after the practice has been established where there is little or no sleep. And heaven forbid if there is even a hint of not being 100% correct.
Yep it's just like a walk in the park.
Cowboydoc; it takes a person who can fill some pretty big shoes to become a Doctor. I know I couldn't and am not ashamed of admitting it.
Egon
Basically 15 years of free slave labour not counting the work required in high school just to be consider for admission and then the "on call " days after the practice has been established where there is little or no sleep. And heaven forbid if there is even a hint of not being 100% correct.
Yep it's just like a walk in the park.
Cowboydoc; it takes a person who can fill some pretty big shoes to become a Doctor. I know I couldn't and am not ashamed of admitting it.
Egon
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Some great points in there. To go off a little farther though, how do your feelings translate to the pay scales for the professional Sports Industries? <font color=blue>But when you start collapsing that system that rewards people based on their merits and what they do in work, school, etc. this whole system will collapse. </font color=blue>
cstocks
Platinum Member
<font color=blue>I have seen some engineers(not all)that come straight from college into the plant and I wonder what school they went to,they are just kids and far from adding value to the company.
I always thought they should have to work out in the operations unit doing some shift work for a couple of years and finding out what makes the place really tick and get a REAL education backed with experience...</font color=blue>
Been there, seen that for the past fourteen years!/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif By the time they figure out up from down they are promoted or re-assigned and then we hourly peons have to start all over educating new ones!
<font color=blue>Management.....I do not want to go there right now....I could start another thread......</font color=blue>
I agree with you on this, too... at least from what I see in my workplace. I have seen many good managers come and go at my plant. Not that they were good managers, per se, but intelligent, likable people. The problem I see with managers (middle and upper management) in industry is that most of them have paid their dues in college to become engineers and wind up being in charge of other people and lack the management (read: people) skills needed to be sucessful. College prepares them to excel in one field and when they hit the real world they end up in positions that they have little or no training for. A manager can be the smartest and most likable person in the world but if he lacks people skills he will never be as effective as a person in his position needs to be.
I always thought they should have to work out in the operations unit doing some shift work for a couple of years and finding out what makes the place really tick and get a REAL education backed with experience...</font color=blue>
Been there, seen that for the past fourteen years!/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif By the time they figure out up from down they are promoted or re-assigned and then we hourly peons have to start all over educating new ones!
<font color=blue>Management.....I do not want to go there right now....I could start another thread......</font color=blue>
I agree with you on this, too... at least from what I see in my workplace. I have seen many good managers come and go at my plant. Not that they were good managers, per se, but intelligent, likable people. The problem I see with managers (middle and upper management) in industry is that most of them have paid their dues in college to become engineers and wind up being in charge of other people and lack the management (read: people) skills needed to be sucessful. College prepares them to excel in one field and when they hit the real world they end up in positions that they have little or no training for. A manager can be the smartest and most likable person in the world but if he lacks people skills he will never be as effective as a person in his position needs to be.
WVBill
Veteran Member
<font color=blue> The pay scales for the professional Sports Industries </font color=blue> are directly proportional to the number of us who will sit in front of the television on Sunday afternoon or Monday night to watch the games. If we're not watching, the advertisers will not pay as much to the networks, who will not pay as much to the teams who will not pay as much to the players. The advertisers pay so much because we go out and buy the products they show us during their commercials.
It's kind of a cycle - they sell more products because there are more of us watching because there are more highly paid players performing for us.
Oh by the way - when they sell more products, more of us get to keep our jobs.
It's kind of a cycle - they sell more products because there are more of us watching because there are more highly paid players performing for us.
Oh by the way - when they sell more products, more of us get to keep our jobs.
Hey, Cowboydoc do you sell tractors??
<font color=blue>How would you like to sit down with your family for dinner or a game with your kids and get a call you have to leave. Do this 3-10 times a week on average and see how tired you get of it. You get a retirement from your company, you get half your social security paid, etc. etc. On your own as a professional you have none of that. You don't have sick days, you don't have vacation days. You take a day off you don't get paid. You pay 40-60% right off the top for expenses. Then when you do get paid you pay about 50% or more of every dollar to taxes. Do you have any idea the amount of paperwork alone that you have to do? No I didn't think so. A professional may only work eight hours as far as office hours go seeing patients and clients but you have no idea the amount of work that goes on behind the scenes.</font color=blue>
The exerpt from your post is about what it's like to sell tractors. The scenarios may be a little different but, the jist of it is the same.
BTW I wouldn't give it up for anything. I was on the other side of the coin for along time(buying instead of selling) and I love selling equipment. I like talking to people. I have at times sold some things at cost, just because I thought the price was rediculous. This is not the way to make a profit but I haven't had to do it very many times and it makes the customer happy. It gives me great satisfaction when a customer says "You didn't have to come out right away but, I'm glad you did" /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
BTW I think you went a little hard on putty, I don't think he meant it quite as harsh as you took it.
Just like there's good and bad in people there are lazy people and hard working people. The lazy people give everyone in the profession a bad name.
KO
<font color=blue>How would you like to sit down with your family for dinner or a game with your kids and get a call you have to leave. Do this 3-10 times a week on average and see how tired you get of it. You get a retirement from your company, you get half your social security paid, etc. etc. On your own as a professional you have none of that. You don't have sick days, you don't have vacation days. You take a day off you don't get paid. You pay 40-60% right off the top for expenses. Then when you do get paid you pay about 50% or more of every dollar to taxes. Do you have any idea the amount of paperwork alone that you have to do? No I didn't think so. A professional may only work eight hours as far as office hours go seeing patients and clients but you have no idea the amount of work that goes on behind the scenes.</font color=blue>
The exerpt from your post is about what it's like to sell tractors. The scenarios may be a little different but, the jist of it is the same.
BTW I wouldn't give it up for anything. I was on the other side of the coin for along time(buying instead of selling) and I love selling equipment. I like talking to people. I have at times sold some things at cost, just because I thought the price was rediculous. This is not the way to make a profit but I haven't had to do it very many times and it makes the customer happy. It gives me great satisfaction when a customer says "You didn't have to come out right away but, I'm glad you did" /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
BTW I think you went a little hard on putty, I don't think he meant it quite as harsh as you took it.
Just like there's good and bad in people there are lazy people and hard working people. The lazy people give everyone in the profession a bad name.
KO