Outraged and undersized!

slowrev · Jul 20, 2004

"Same as all the other 'gas shortage' events. Price goes up and up and up and then down and down but never back to where it was or even close."

Yeah and all of the oil companies mergers to promote competition ??? I also believe in the tooth fairy and Santa.

Harv · Jul 20, 2004

( We use the metric system sporadically as with byte adding the appropriate multiplier, byte, kilobyte, megabyte, gigabyte, terabyte. )

Of course in my world (computer geek), there is nothing metric about those terms.

A metric kilo is 1,000, whereas a kilobyte is 1,024 bytes.
A metric mega is 1,000,000, whereas a megabyte is 1,048,576 bytes.
A metric giga is 1,000,000,000, whereas a gigabyte is 1,073,741,824 bytes.
A metric tera is 1,000,000,000,000, whereas a terabyte is 1,099,511,627,776 bytes.

We won't go into petabytes, exabytes, zettabytes or yottabytes, but they is BIG. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Now, even in computer circles, by the time you get past gigabytes, people start rounding down to the "metric" equivalent, just 'cuz it's too hard to think the other way. Many folks, in fact, think in the round numbers for all of these terms, so my point here is meaningless.

Just thought I'd add to the confusion. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Hypernix · Jul 20, 2004

And of course the reason it is like this is because computers use the binary system (0s and 1s) so every time you add a bit to a register you effectively double it's capacity.

So if you start from 1 byte (which is 8 bits on most computers today) and double that until you get to 1 Kilo Bytes you end up with the 1024 magic number.

ie: 1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024

Hypernix /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hypernix · Jul 20, 2004

Ho yeah, and my point was that the binary system is similar to the base 12 system in this respect: Instead of dividing by 2, you multiply by 2. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Hypernix

_RaT_ · Jul 20, 2004

Hi Harv, your alive! True enough. It is simply the prefix, by adding such, we simply move the decimal point. If we had the standard system, we would use the byte to represent 8 bits. After that, a kilobyte would have a name like gobblygook, a megabyte would be, stinkerdoo and a terrabyte would whatchamallcallit. In other areas, we use millivolts, milliamps or kilowatts and various prefix's to that. In the medical field, all perscriptions are pretty much specified in metric terms. Track and field has completely dropped the standard system. My favorite 100 yard dash and the 5280' run have disappeared. Fortunately, the meter is just slightly more then a yard. Speaking of a yard, why did we use 3 feet, why not 5 feet? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Always good to hear from you. Rat...

PS. I thought in computer circles folks were coming to the conclusion that silicon based computers were far to slow and DNA the new horizon. The idea that in 20 years we will operate on DNA based computers is intruiging.

higgy · Jul 20, 2004

my crusty memory was that the yard was the reach from the nose to the tip of an out streached finger and arm of some king in some distant time in some distant land, therefore it must be a reasonable basis for a measurement system.

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

TresCrows · Jul 20, 2004

( Maybe I am dense and not totaly following this but can we be responsible for your thoughts 
Answers, in order. Yes. No. Yes. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif )

I thought we was talking about a milk container. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Anyone see that movie just out with the robots. It was an OK scifi movie. Had some interesting effects but nothing really new but still OK.
You know, I fully think that in time, maybe sooner than we know, we will be dealing with machines that are setient. Not alive by a biological definition nor intelligent in a manner that we are having resulted from a complex interaction of evolved instincts, survival, hormones, heredity and learned behavoirs and traditions but still--they will be intelligent. I guess in a way, we still argue if animals have emotions, know love, remeber kindness, if whales have a heart, can dolphins think--ultimately the answer is yes but we have such diffuculty admitting it or seeing it so how will we react to machines that can think--how will we know when this threshold has been crossed, I guess we will have a common language at least, something whales and fido lack.
I imagine they will prefer the metric system, I will insist my robots use inches and feet. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif J

daedong · Jul 20, 2004

No one has talked about hectares or cubic measure, much easier than those achers /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif and yards.
one other point about metric is 1 litre of water = 1kilo so one ton 1000kg =1000 litres, how sensible is that /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

jinman · Jul 20, 2004

( ...we had a 20 year old kid from Kentucky with a circular slide rule who was faster than our $40 million computer at generating target solutions!
)

Pete, that reminds me of when I worked on Guided Missile Radar in the US Navy. Before deployment, we had an engineer come onboard to run some tests. This guy looked at some data I had collected, broke out his slide rule, and told me from the data the problem was most likely in the traverse gyro. (all this while I was getting my schematics ready to do more troubleshooting)

I thought he was nuts, but went ahead and replaced the gyro even though I thought there was a problem in the servo feedback circuit. Sure enough, the problem went away with the new gyro. That's the first and only guy I ever saw who could troubleshoot with a slide rule. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif Of course, he had no common sense either. You had to tell him to tie his shoes and to duck when going through a water-tight door. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

mikim · Jul 21, 2004

Had a kid working for me that carried a full load after duty - nearly had his EE -- he could troubleshoot a schematic like nobody I've ever seen before or since. Have a problem you can't find? Tell John the symptoms and what you've checked already - he'd go through the schematics and hit it every time.....but he couldn't actually do it on the airplane. I found him one day after he'd spent an hour troubleshooting a gear indicator 'cause it wasn't getting power ....... the circuit breaker was pulled. Worked great after I pushed it in.

mwechtal · Jul 21, 2004

All,
for a well thought out discussion of why the metric system isn't everything we've been told it would be see this link.

Pidgin Measurement

There is a reason that builders chose a system based on 12, and some european builders are just rediscovering the benefits.

The fellow who wrote this is Brion Toss, an expert in rigging sailboats for offshore crusing. Oh, he can rig pretty much any sailboat, but his real expertise is in making it reliable and teaching the owners to do basic repairs so they aren't stuck in the middle of the Pacific waiting for a tow.

Mike

rozett · Jul 21, 2004

not to change the subject.... /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

but it turns out that the change in carton size for ice cream started in Jan '03 with Dreyer's. change
Since that time, it looks like all of the other manufacturers have joined it. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif Maybe I should learn to make my own.... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

daedong · Jul 21, 2004

This guy clearly has a way with words, very clever /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

12 system is very easy to divide but hell you try and multiply, subtract, and add with it compared to the metric system /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

In every day life, my kettle boils at 100c, my lawn is frosty at 0c, my body temperature is in between 0c and 100c (37c)

Those over 45yrs still remember and in most cases learnt the old imperial system and in fact worked with it. However if you asked anyone of them, they would with out doubt tell you metric is far superior, it is easy to work with, its saves a huge amount of time in calculations.

I will also admit that I like so many Australians over 45yrs old will still talk inches and feet. (manly in idol chat). Old habits die hard as they say, but hell it’s much easier for younger kids now because we stood up and changed for the better, it’s not easy but I know it was worth it.

TODAYS CHANGES ARE TOMORROWS TRADITONS

_RaT_ · Jul 21, 2004

OK, try this review. Mechanics Illustrated

mwechtal · Jul 22, 2004

_RaT_ and Daedong,
I think that what Brion Toss was trying to get at is that in the building trades the Metric system is not practical. The French carpenters were just coming up with a way to speed up their work and avoid decimal points.

As far as engineers and scientists, of course the metric system is necessary. You never know when you need to work with scientists or engineers in another country.

The other point was that the Centigrade system is not connected to the other measures in the Metric system. Units of length are tied to area and volume, and using a volume of water they're tied to units of mass etc. However the Centigrade scale isn't tied to the other units in any way. The Centigrade system has units that go from 0 to 100 as part of it's scale, but so does the Fahrenheit scale. The choice of Centigrade over Fahrenheit was just a matter of preference to whoever made the decision.

Mike

_RaT_ · Jul 22, 2004

Mike, very good points and understood. There does not seem to be one system that is ideal. I think that is the point that I was making with the link I posted based on 7's. Anyway, it's enlightening to hear from those who use the metric system, those who don't and those of us, which nowadays is most, use a combination of both. Good comments, Rat.

MicroPilot · Jul 22, 2004

Ummm, In the article that _RAT_ linked too it says that Celsius is NOT part of the metric (SI) system. The unit of temperature in SI is Kelvin.

higgy · Jul 22, 2004

The unit of one degree kelvin and one degree Celsius are the same.

Please see the information below, which is from a disussion on meteric system.

The degree Celsius (°C) is a unit of temperature named after the Swedish astronomer Anders Celsius (1701–1744), who first proposed it in 1742. The Celsius temperature scale was designed so that the freezing point of water is 0 degrees, and the boiling point is 100 degrees at standard atmospheric pressure.

Since there are one hundred graduations between these two reference points, the original term for this system was centigrade (100 parts) or centesimal. In 1948 the system's name was officially changed to Celsius by the 9th General Conference on Weights and Measures (CR 64), both in recognition of Celsius himself and to eliminate confusion caused by conflict with the SI (metric) use of the centi- prefix.

While the values for freezing and boiling of water remain approximately correct, the original definition is unsuitable as a formal standard: it depends on the definition of standard atmospheric pressure which in turn depends on the definition of temperature. The current official definition of the Celsius sets 0.01°C to be at the triple point of water and a degree to be 1/273.16 of the difference in temperature between the triple point of water and absolute zero. This definition ensures that one degree Celsius represents the same temperature difference as one kelvin.

Dane

turnkey4099 · Jul 23, 2004

I am a proponent of the metric system and had many an arguement about it when we were supposed to change over. One of the dumbest IMO anti arguments went:

'I'll have to look at my wrenches to get the right one'.

Now just why would that be? You don't do it now, you want a 9/16, you reach over and grab the one that looks like the 9/16. You'll do the same when you need a 10mm.

I actually kept my metric measuring tools for carpentry when I returned from service in Europe. Took a while to resign myself to going back to inches, feet etc.

Harry K

slowrev · Jul 23, 2004

There are more metric wrench sizes that are close together. Is that a 10 or a 9 or an 11 mm ??? In the US SAE wrneches about 4 or 5 cover most things. Unless working on something big. I hate the mixed stuff, is that a 3/8 or an 8, a 7/16 or a 10... mixed SAE/Metric stuff sucks.