Performance question on 4010

BigEddy · Feb 4, 2005

I think I know what's going on.
The Hydro pump(s) on the tractor are always running, flowing fluid around the circuit. The HP consumed by the pump(s) depends on the GPM and the pressure. GPM varies with engine speed and is not changing, but the pressure changes with the load.
When you are going straight, there is no load on the hydraulics - therefore no pressure, and the HP demands are essentially nil - just the friction losses.
When you turn at the end of the row - pushing the steering cylinder drives the pressure up, increasing the load on the pump and therefore the engine. If you turn to the stop, the relief opens at the max pressure and therefore max HP drain. Assuming 2000 psi and 4 GPM, that would be over 5HP load on the engine. If the 4010 has 14HP PTO, holding the steering against the stops would reduce blade HP over 1/3rd, and that would definitely affect performance.
This can be avoided by more gradual turns, or backing off the steering before the stop is hit.

I know my 322 with PS will bog on a tight turn IF I turn all the way to the stops and hold there, but won't if the stops aren't hit.

That's my best guess as to what's going on.

Cliff_Johns · Feb 4, 2005

Nice analysis, Big Eddy. That makes a lot of sense. Hitting the stops would reduce power a lot, and turning in general will have some affect on the power available to the PTO. So, strangely, to improve the mowing performance around curves, you could remove the power steering.

Cliff

JTC · Feb 4, 2005

TRAFFORD69,

I have the same tractor and deck that you have and had a similar problem as you have. Unless you are doing something like turning the steering to the hard stop or something like that, it sounds like you probably found the same problem that I had.

The discharge shut of the 54" deck goes down at a sharper angle then any other deck that I've seen. I've found that this restricts the exit greatly and presents a problem when mowing heavy grass. JD probably did this as a safety thing since it deflects anything thrown by the deck down quickly, it just leaves no place for heavy grass to go.

The solution was simple, I just prop open the shut with a stick between the main deck body and the shut, leaving it angled down 5 to 10 degrees instead of the approximately 30 degrees that it normally hangs down.

I find I have no power shortfalls now and I mow 150 RPM less than rated PTO RPM.

I too have thought about replacing the implement hydraulic pump (which is separate from the power steering pump) with the one from the 4110/4115, but this is because I wished it dumped faster.

No other complaints or short-comings that I've run into.

Jim

RalphVa · Feb 4, 2005

That's a good analysis, BigEddy.

Wonder if there's a way on the 4010 of putting in a mechanical stop just before the internal one? I was just out there washing and waxing mine. Think it's fairly open down there. Guess no place to put a mechanical stop.

Think that's what happened on mine at the bottom of that hill when I turned sharply uphill. That's what I said about actually backing up in the opposite direction, etc. This would work, but a mechanical stop would allow the mowing to proceed. The wheels do turn rather sharply. Wouldn't hurt if they were stopped down a little shorter.

Ralph

trafford69 · Feb 4, 2005

WOW!!!

This small question has really generated a lot of great discussion and input. I truly appreciate the thoughts and suggestions from a very knowledgeable group of tractor folks.

I'll try to respond to everyone in this reply.

I am using standard blades and side discharge. I never mow with the FEL on. I do not think I am hitting the stops when I turn but I'm not sure. I mow with the discharge facing out so I do not remow the discharge.

The frame size is the same on the 4010/4110/4115 but the 4010 drops 4.5 hp to the pto, the 4115 drop 5 hp and the 4110 drops only 3hp. If I had to do it all over again, I think I would have coughed up the extra $2k and got the 4110. I figured my problem was a function of the hydraulic system so a new hydraulic system would solve the problem. Maybe that's just poor logic from a tractor rookie. Perhaps some adjustments to the system would do the job. I will try the adjustment on the deck discharge suggested by Jim and see if it helps. I will also pay more attention on the turns to ensure I don't hit the stops.

The old tractor had a 46" deck belt driven off of the 18hp Kohler engine on a tractor that weighed about 500lbs less. Perhaps that is an unfair comparison for the 4010.

I like everything else about the tractor and I really like the dealer. They are just plain good folks, the kind that seem to be harder to find these days. I almost bought a TC24 from Corriher of NC but I wanted to keep my money in PA and I was worried about local service after the sale. I may consider an upgrade next year to one of the new compact JD's if none of the suggestions pans out. The dealer said I should get about 80% of what I paid if I sold it myself but he can only offer me 65% because he needs to make a profit and still have wiggle room. I hate to take a $6k or $7k hit on a tractor I used for only 2 years. I hear the new ones will run about the same price as the old.

I don't intend to give up on my 4010 just yet. I may discuss the hydraulic adjustments or replacement with the mechanic at the dealership to see what he thinks. He seems to be a real straight shooter and perhaps he has an idea or two.

Once again thatnks for all of the input. If anyone has any other ideas, please post them because I am very open to suggestions and very appriciative of the knowledge offered by the members of this forum. This is one of the best forums I have been involved with.

bigpete · Feb 4, 2005

I'm guessing you will learn to live with what you now feel are shortcomings. I think adjusting the way you mow will help you see how much beter your 4010 performs over your last GT. Don't forget you are now moving over the ground a lot faster than your old machine, and you are pushing a heavier machine cutting 17% more grass on each cut. I also have to repeat that no machine cuts 3+" of lush ornamental turf well in a single pass. I would'nt do it with my 4110 and expect good results.

I have planted almost 40 new trees on my lot and find myself spinning my steering wheel too frequently and too fast. I will be buying a 42"-48" pro walk-behind with standing sulky this spring to take care of my trimming. A solid used machine is going to cost me around $2K and I will have a back-up mower to boot. There are lots of alternatives. Make sure your machine is really performing to spec and accept it for what it is.

jimgerken · Feb 8, 2005

Is your tractor a four-wheel drive? Using four-wheel drive while turning takes a lot more power, especially if you can get traction. Use four-wheel where you have to, but use two-wheel everywhere else, it takes less power. If you have two-wheel drive tractor, disregard above. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

trafford69 · Feb 12, 2005

Bigpete,

You are right. I have to accept my tractor for what it is. Hopefully this year the weather will be more cooperative and I will be able to mow on a regular schedule. I have lots of loader work planned for the spring and I'm sure the 4010 will not disappoint me.

Jimgerken,

I never use 4WD when I am mowing or plowing. I kind of look at that feature as something that's there only when I really need it, which isn't very often. I only use it in muddy conditions and I would bet that if I just put my chains on, I would probably use it even less.

I'm going to try some of the suggestions made here and see how things go this year. Upgrading is not a cheap option and I have too many projects that are calling for my money already. I hoep every one that read this thread got as much out of it as I did.

Hypernix · Feb 15, 2005

Hello Trafford,

Just my 0.02 here, from my experience on my 4110, you get a lot more power when using the low range. I use the high range to move the tractor to the work area but then use the low range to do the work including mowing. Just getting the tractor moving in high range takes a lot of power so imagine if you have the PTO running while turning the wheels and going uphill for example!

The 4WD is one of the nicest things on those little 4000! When I started to shop, I was wondering what a 4WD tractor would give me since the land here is pretty flat. Well let me tell you that I am glad the some TBNers educated me! I would have had to get some help many time to get myself out of trouble if I didn't have the 4WD! I use it almost all the time when doing FEL work and also during the winter with the snow blower.

Also, I've hurd that those Diesel engines produce a lot of tork at low RPM. I almost never have my 4110 at full trottle. Anyone know if using lower RPM would help getting more power to the PTO? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Hypernix