PhD (Please Doctors look here)

Phred · Jan 12, 2003

SawDust,

I have a doctorate in electrical engineering and can still find where I parked my tractor....

The issue is sometimes you find an area that really is interesting and what you learn with a BS just scratches the surface.
An MS and or a PHD offers a more complete study.

The MS in most fields is a two year project and you do some hands on research and write a thesis (50-100 page book).

Phd is about 5 and you must do something novel in most fields and write a dissertation (significant text). Most schools also require a qualifying exam that is basically a writen test over your entire field ( not a lot of fun since it takes several days).

For me I always wanted to understand more about the field and therefore just keeped on going. In the end you find that the learning process is never ending but the advanced degrees teach you how to learn and solve problems.

No regrets on my part although it is a huge amount of work with a large number of hurdles to jump through.

If money is the goal you can make more in business. If job satisfaction and a comfortable living is the goal and you love a particluar field, the Ph.D. is the way IMHO.

Fred

Phred · Jan 12, 2003

Dave and Pete,

the indentured servant part of grad school

Yes that sure is part of it, and sometimes some professors take it to an extreme. And like you said the major professor has alot of power and the graduate student has less than zero.

But in the end don't you think the expereince and all that hard work payed off?
In contrast just about any other job you have after that is like heaven in comparison to graduate school.

Fred

Boondox · Jan 12, 2003

But in the end don't you think the expereince and all that hard work payed off?

Absolutely! There are all sorts of gems that go to those with the passion and perseverence to put up with the endless hours. For me -- since I'm no longer working in my field -- I'd say the greatest gift of that experience was the critical thinking skills you get from it. Sounds like Dave was in the right place at the right time, studying the right stuff, to have a fascinating career! But my bet is he'll agree with me wholeheartedly about the critical thinking part.

To add to the bit you said about the differences between undergrad and grad programs...to my way of thinking an undergraduate degree gives you a key to a better life, and your choice of graduate programs is based on your life passion. It's not just the key to your future employment opportunities; it's your way of saying "This is where I want to make a difference." (Corollary for business types: "This is what I want to do with my professional life.") It's a gamble in some fields. Mine is a good example. I entered grad school in the early 80s when AIDS was really taking off. There was some evidence that it would be the next great plague, and I wanted to be in the vanguard to head off that crisis. But as my research and that of others showed, HIV/AIDS was spread by a constellation of behaviors that were not that widespread in the hetero population of Western cultures. (Cultural metacontingencies are vastly different in other places -- like SE Asia and sub-Saharan Africa -- which is why AIDS is such a huge problem there.) And with those findings the public health study of HIV/AIDS became hugely political, which is a game I don't play. So my gamble didn't pay off. That's not to say my doc was a waste, though. Far from it.

And yet there are times, when I'm standing in the engine compartment of my 57 Dodge pickup trying to keep that old flathead six running, that I wish my education had included voc auto! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif Keeping things running, keeping crops and livestock healthy -- that's an entirely different sort of satisfaction.

Pete

MikePA · Jan 12, 2003

I'd say the greatest gift of that experience was the critical thinking skills you get from it.
I'd say this is the best, and most long lasting, benefit of almost all college degree programs. Long after the specifics might be forgotten, how to think is still with you.

saw_dust · Jan 12, 2003

deliberate my options before I speak

Engage the brain before putting the mouth in gear

Trev · Jan 12, 2003

I've really got to hand it to the M.D. folks. A buddy of mine called me one day.. he was doing either his internship or his residency, I forget which, but he said he hadn't slept in 72 hours, was starting to hallucinate, and had just messed up a patient's medications. How do they expect people to put on the correct socks, let alone diagnose medical proglems, when they are under such sleep-deprivation conditions?? Seems so weird to me.

Well, he's a successful brain surgeon now.. so I guess it paid off.

JATO_RaT · Jan 12, 2003

Bob, I found your response most interesting. One question that I have often wanted to ask but never did is regarding logging. I never really thought about it until I read various posts at TBN over the years. You mention logging of trees. I did not really think that they logged in the East but obviously they do. What type of trees do they log and what is it used for? I have built a home in Maine and most of the lumber came from the South and the Douglas Fir came from CA, OR or WA. While the logs they cut out here are getting smaller for sure, I have never seen much of anything smaller then about 16" and typically 24" or larger are seen. As a child, the logging trucks usually carried about 2 to 3 logs, today I count as many as 15. The great thing is that while the smaller trees make for much less stable lumber, the advances in the lumber industry to "straighten" this out has been wonderful. I for one don't mind using engineered lumber especially when it means keeping the massive trees alive for us to see. If you have never seen the massive redwoods in CA, you should do it. The redwoods in the Northern portion of the state are very impressive because of their girth and height, the Redwoods near Yosemite are impressive because of their incredible girth, Rat...

rancar · Jan 12, 2003

Hi Mark....

You mention logging of trees. I did not really think that they logged in the East but obviously they do. What type of trees do they log and what is it used for?

Loggers look primarily for eastern white oaks, maples, and black cherry (this is highly valued). The value and demand for each will fluctuate depending upon market prices and supply conditions. Logs can either be saw or veneer (most prized) and used for lumber, furniture manufacturing, specialized wood products. Many of these logs are shipped to overseas markets, such as Europe and Japan where oaks, maples, and cherry are in high demand.

Loggers try to economize by taking as much as they can. One logger who came to my place liked to cut this smaller stuff for the firewood market....said he had to maximize use of his equipment, make payroll, etc. by cutting as much as he could. I quickly showed him the exit off the property.

As a child, the logging trucks usually carried about 2 to 3 logs, today I count as many as 15.

Here, the trucks I see truck the logs on tandem trailers....usually 15-20 per flatbed.

If you have never seen the massive redwoods in CA, you should do it. The redwoods in the Northern portion of the state are very impressive because of their girth and height, the Redwoods near Yosemite are impressive because of their incredible girth,...

Yep...I've been there. I was a forestry student at Utah State Univ in the 1970s. Am always impressed with the western forests which are primary coniferous vis-a-vis hardwoods in the eastern states. Doug fir is one of my favorites and the primary timber tree in the west.

Bob

JATO_RaT · Jan 12, 2003

Thanks Bob, I always wondered about our hardwoods and their sources. I was told at a hardwood specialty outlet that much of our red oak came from the Tennensse area. When in Maine, it seemed much of the trees were Birch as I recall. Thanks for the update. Rat...

Chuck52 · Jan 12, 2003

Saw Dust,

I'm still trying to figure out a way to describe how I ended up with a PhD in Biochemistry that suggests I planned it all along. I'm jealous of some of the guys who seem to have had a plan for their lives as soon as they graduated high school.

Chuck