Photograher trapped by young bull Elk...Great Smokey Mountains...

[texasjohn]

totally correct. Lots of folks there in cars who should have moved immediately between elk and guy but simply sat there. Fellow should have grabbed horns, exploded to a standing position, placed body between horns, gouged eyes and hit nose....when elk disengaged, which it demonstrated it would in the video, fellow should have retreated to vehicle.

Main problem, seems to me, he was willing to risk life and limb and eyes for a few seconds of notoriety...as an idiot.

What I saw was one dumb idiot, having no value for his eyes.

Under ten sec, that elk could have impaled him on his antlers and gouged his eyes out and maybe what little brain the dipstick had.

He was showing off, and it could have gone real bad.

Would you stick your face on any elks antlers?

Would you stick your face in a rattlesnakes face.

You might say this is different. I say stupid is stupid.

 

[joshuabardwell]

The wildlife people came in the next week and destroyed the young elk after the video went out. I believe there is a rule in the park that people are supposed to stay at least 100 feet from the animals. Hated the result for the young fellow.

According to the Internet, the elk had a long history of coming too close to people, even after being shot repeatedly with bean bags and scared with firecrackers. So at least it wasn't a knee-jerk overreaction by the rangers.

 

[joshuabardwell]

Fellow should have grabbed horns, exploded to a standing position, placed body between horns, gouged eyes and hit nose....when elk disengaged, which it demonstrated it would in the video, fellow should have retreated to vehicle.

I don't want to presume, but have you tried this on a large animal? I have a ram ("only" about 150 lbs) who gets spunky sometimes, and I have tried many many things to teach him who's boss. Smack on the nose? Half the time, he ducks the smack. The rest of the time it hurts my hand way more than it hurts him. You have no idea how heavy a ram's skull is! Eye gouge? I don't gouge him in the eyes because I don't want to injure him, but I guess it would back him up. For one second. And then he'll try to butt me again. The only two things that have worked consistently is a crack across the jaw with an ash stick and, I later discovered, laying on him, then turning him on his back and holding his feet in the air while he struggles for about five minutes.

The thing is that anything the guy does to disengage the elk is only going to be temporary. The elk is going to back up and come back twice as worked up as it was before. Unless the guy's disengagement attack is so devastating that it totally blows the elk away--but I can't think of anything an unarmed human is likely to do that is going to accomplish that to a 600-lb elk.

 

[texasjohn]

All the fellow should have sought was a momentary elk retreat so he could seek refuge in a vehicle. That's my point. My comment was aimed at winning him that retreat moment...nothing more.

He, obviously, was neither animal savvy nor particularly interested in retreating.

And, yes, I know something about large animals, their behavior and how to handle/manhandle them both in the pasture and the pen. Have lifelong ranching experience with Angora bucks with horns of about 2 feet, adult rams with full curl horns, cattle...bulls, cows, calves, horned and not...creatures ranging in weight from 50 lbs to 2200 lbs. None of these should be a pet, all should respect people and maintain their distance. When they don't, they must be taught respect. If they do not learn and are a danger to people, young or old, they must be removed from the herd before they hurt someone. .

A wise old cowman once told me, "being run over by a cow is one time too many!"

For your ram, I recommend always carrying a stout stick, about 4 to 5 feet long, whenever you are around him. He has become too familiar with you and considers you a member of the herd. Thus, he engages in dominance behavior with you. You will notice him eyeing you and approaching with intent to engage. BEFORE he gets real close, show him the stick, aimed at him to intercept him if he gets closer. As he gets closer, increase the punishment he receives. First a push on the nose, then a tap, then a whack, then a blow, then move to the cheek/jaw where you have already determined he responds. Equally important is to NOT use dominance behavior with him during this period. Directly facing him with the body and face is considered a challenge he feels he must meet. Avoid this...while maintaining awareness of his position out of the corner of your eyes. When he approaches, dish out the punishment from the non dominant position...then, when he cedes a round and stops/retreats, even for a moment, directly face him, advance menacingly with stick extended and seek to have him continue the retreat...repeat punishment quickly if he does not retreat. He must be taught to keep his distance and to retreat if you advance on him. Yes, I know, sheep are not the sharpest thing in the pen...but you know when he and other sheep are yielding to your presence versus planning an attack. Good luck!!

 

[cqaigy2]

Sounds like texasjohn has had goats, and don't grab the rams horns.

 

[joshuabardwell]

Directly facing him with the body and face is considered a challenge he feels he must meet. Avoid this...while maintaining awareness of his position out of the corner of your eyes. When he approaches, dish out the punishment from the non dominant position...

I have pretty much worked out most of what you said on my own, but this is good and novel advice, and I thank you for it. When he gets skittery and starts squaring off and winding up for a pass at me, I typically square off with him with the stick in my hand. Most of the time, he backs down, but boy it sure frustrates him. He usually goes to butting a tree or one of the ewes. Maybe if I was to avoid taking a confrontational position he wouldn't be so mad when he gets disciplined.

Honestly, I am a little uncomfortable with the stick method because I think there is too much chance of accidentally injuring him. My aim was off one time and I accidentally hit him on the eye and he got a cut on his the ocular ridge. As silly as it sounds, so far, what has worked the best, with least danger to either of us, has been me catching him around the neck when he charges, and turning him on his back and just holding him there by his feet. After about five minutes of that, he is really upset, and when I let him go, he walks away and doesn't even look back.

 

[J_J]

Who do you think won this episode?

Deer fights back against a hunter! Go deer! - YouTube

 

[joshuabardwell]

I'm a fan of this one, personally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN6TWzAGFhU

 

[cqaigy2]

Oh man, that's gotta hurt for awhile.

 

[texasjohn]

Joshua, an idea just occurred to me...I understand your point about poor aim under stress (am sure you are a better hunter than the guy in the video). What about attaching something to the end of the stick which both makes a unique sound and would cover the face/eyes?? Maybe a black bag/flag on the end of the stick. Whip it around and it flutters audibly. Flip it over the eyes and it confuses him, diverts attention from you. Possibly you could condition him to turn away at the flutter sound and large object...sheep are intimidated by sheep dogs, border collies are typically black and white.

Your flip on back technique is novel...and certainly is conclusive about who won that round...the time involved gives him to realize it...the position is vulnerable and no prey animal wants to be there...and his attitude/emotions have time to cool off. I've used a variant on that approach. You know that sheep often jump as they go thru a gate...On occasion while seeking to stop an escaping animal I've been able to catch them in mid jump and flip them backwards on their back...but things gotta be just right for this to work. A last, untested idea, what about a dog training collar...a shock when displaying aggressive behavior could associate his aggression attitude toward you with a loosing battle, without YOU actually having to physically engage in the battle.

Now, this thread is well hijacked...from elk to sheep!!:deer::sheep: