Slamfire
Veteran Member
I lived 30 years in California, and they wouldn't let you have any unvented gas buring equipment in a house, too many dead people.
Plasma tv and fireplace
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Gary_in_Indiana
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My SO tells me she's very concerned with the dangerous and potentially deadly gas emissions in the bedroom.
Funny, we don't even have a fireplace in the bedroom. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Funny, we don't even have a fireplace in the bedroom. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
<font color="blue"> I lived 30 years in California, and they wouldn't let you have any unvented gas buring equipment in a house, too many dead people. </font>
In one of those inexplicable coincidences that seem to happen frequently, I read your comment one day, and then the next received a magazine (Hearth & Home, from HBPA, the Hearth, Barbecue and Patio Association) which had an article with direct bearing. The article began,
"Vent-free appliances have been surrounded by controversy since they first entered the market many years ago. The first appliances that carried the name "vent-free" were, indeed, problem products in terms of indoor air quality and their impact on human health. The element of primary concern in these products was their ability to produce carbon monoxide (CO).
"Caveats concerning their use came from many sources, including the Consumer Products Safety Commission, American Lung Association, and many other health and housing organizations. Most building codes and standards in most Western nations excluded them or restricted their use.
"Then, along came the innovation of the oxygen depletion sensor, and a plethora of combustion technology tweaks that resulted in a product that could burn cleanly and basically free of CO. A whole new category of appliances rapidly gained acceptance, and popularity, around the world.
"Vent-free appliances have freed architects, designers and builders from the limitations on placement of the appliance once imposed by the need of a vent. Inside walls, island locations, middle levels in dwellings and simple retrofit into existing buildings are primary reasons for their popularity. High efficiency and convenience of use are other reasons for their acceptance."
In my own words, many state and local laws have been changed to make vent-free appliances available for use. The oxygen depletion sensor is nearly foolproof; coupled with a good CO detector, no one should be fearful of using a quality vent-free fireplace. Somewhere I have a list of the states that still prohibit them; they are primarily in the West for some reason.
There are two possible reasons why they should not be used. One is the thrust of the article I quoted above - improperly sized, they can create moisture problems which may be associated with the current fad of bringing mold litigation. The moisture is a greater problem in the colder climes. And, in some areas, primarily in the northern Midwest, some housing codes have made houses so air-tight that replacement air for the air depleted from any form of combustion may be in short supply.
They are nearly perfect appliances here in the South, however, because there is less cold weather to produce the moisture, and our houses tend to be more open. I wouldn't hesitate to put a vent-free fireplace in my bedroom or anywhere else in the house. I would be certain of having CO detectors, however, which is a good idea whether or not the appliances are used. The CO detector in my RV works very well.
As to whether I would place a plasma TV, or any other sensitive electronic gadget, over the fireplace, the answer is a qualified yes. I'd expect that I would have a mantle, and I'd check the temperatures above the mantle for a reasonable time before I made a final decision. But, many of us keep combustible and sensitive items on mantles above fireplaces and don't give it any thought.
If the moisture, CO or air depletion problems concern anyone, then a direct-vent fireplace should be used. It has a double-wall flue in which outside air is drawn in for combustion in the outer chamber and the emissions are exhausted though the inner chamber. The fireplace itself has a glass door or other barrier so the combustion air does not readily mix with the interior air. Such an installation is nearly impossible in an existing house, however, unless the fireplace is located on an outside wall. In this case, the question of a TV over the fireplace is almost moot - most of the heat goes out the flue.
In one of those inexplicable coincidences that seem to happen frequently, I read your comment one day, and then the next received a magazine (Hearth & Home, from HBPA, the Hearth, Barbecue and Patio Association) which had an article with direct bearing. The article began,
"Vent-free appliances have been surrounded by controversy since they first entered the market many years ago. The first appliances that carried the name "vent-free" were, indeed, problem products in terms of indoor air quality and their impact on human health. The element of primary concern in these products was their ability to produce carbon monoxide (CO).
"Caveats concerning their use came from many sources, including the Consumer Products Safety Commission, American Lung Association, and many other health and housing organizations. Most building codes and standards in most Western nations excluded them or restricted their use.
"Then, along came the innovation of the oxygen depletion sensor, and a plethora of combustion technology tweaks that resulted in a product that could burn cleanly and basically free of CO. A whole new category of appliances rapidly gained acceptance, and popularity, around the world.
"Vent-free appliances have freed architects, designers and builders from the limitations on placement of the appliance once imposed by the need of a vent. Inside walls, island locations, middle levels in dwellings and simple retrofit into existing buildings are primary reasons for their popularity. High efficiency and convenience of use are other reasons for their acceptance."
In my own words, many state and local laws have been changed to make vent-free appliances available for use. The oxygen depletion sensor is nearly foolproof; coupled with a good CO detector, no one should be fearful of using a quality vent-free fireplace. Somewhere I have a list of the states that still prohibit them; they are primarily in the West for some reason.
There are two possible reasons why they should not be used. One is the thrust of the article I quoted above - improperly sized, they can create moisture problems which may be associated with the current fad of bringing mold litigation. The moisture is a greater problem in the colder climes. And, in some areas, primarily in the northern Midwest, some housing codes have made houses so air-tight that replacement air for the air depleted from any form of combustion may be in short supply.
They are nearly perfect appliances here in the South, however, because there is less cold weather to produce the moisture, and our houses tend to be more open. I wouldn't hesitate to put a vent-free fireplace in my bedroom or anywhere else in the house. I would be certain of having CO detectors, however, which is a good idea whether or not the appliances are used. The CO detector in my RV works very well.
As to whether I would place a plasma TV, or any other sensitive electronic gadget, over the fireplace, the answer is a qualified yes. I'd expect that I would have a mantle, and I'd check the temperatures above the mantle for a reasonable time before I made a final decision. But, many of us keep combustible and sensitive items on mantles above fireplaces and don't give it any thought.
If the moisture, CO or air depletion problems concern anyone, then a direct-vent fireplace should be used. It has a double-wall flue in which outside air is drawn in for combustion in the outer chamber and the emissions are exhausted though the inner chamber. The fireplace itself has a glass door or other barrier so the combustion air does not readily mix with the interior air. Such an installation is nearly impossible in an existing house, however, unless the fireplace is located on an outside wall. In this case, the question of a TV over the fireplace is almost moot - most of the heat goes out the flue.
NY_Yankees_Fan
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In New Jersey, the fire code require ALL homes, single family included, to have a CO Detector installed if you heat with gas, propane or oil. They enforce the law on the resale of the home; the fire department inspects the home for a working smoke and CO detectors. The number of CO detector activation calls for the fire department have increased significantly since this law was passed. The fire department carries CO detection equipment to try to pin point the problem. They usually vent the home by opening windows and have the homeowner shut the heating system down and call a service person. I am not sure but I think New Jersey is the only state to mandate this type of detector. I think it is a good idea, only flaw is if the unit is not maintained it will not work. You can buy an AC powered unit and do not have to worry about the battery going and have no protection.
Jeff396
Veteran Member
We bought a new house that came with a ventless fireplace in the living room and I installed the log set myself. After reading the directions on the log set I realized the builder did not follow the safety guidelines for the distance combustables should be from the opening. The underside of the wooden mantle was getting quite hot. What I did was install a metal hood above the top of the fireplace. Now, you can't imagine how hot this thing gets.....I accuidently leaned to close and just touched my forehead to the hood and it instantly left a burn.
In my case, the combination of the metal hood and the mantle deflects just about all of the heat away from the wall where a TV would be. In fact, I've been to a couple of houses in my sub where the builder put a TV over the fireplace. I think it looks goofy but that's what he did. I imagine a TV at that height would make more sense in the bedroom. Oh yes, I also installed a carbon monoxide detector and I never run the fireplace unless we're right there in the room with it.
My advice is to find a fireplace shop with some functional units on display and see exactly how much heat there is right up against the wall.
Jeff
In my case, the combination of the metal hood and the mantle deflects just about all of the heat away from the wall where a TV would be. In fact, I've been to a couple of houses in my sub where the builder put a TV over the fireplace. I think it looks goofy but that's what he did. I imagine a TV at that height would make more sense in the bedroom. Oh yes, I also installed a carbon monoxide detector and I never run the fireplace unless we're right there in the room with it.
My advice is to find a fireplace shop with some functional units on display and see exactly how much heat there is right up against the wall.
Jeff
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Jeff396
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rlk
Gold Member
OkeeDon, I have read that article, and have quizzed a local, privately owned, environmental testing lab. They strongly advise against any unvented gas appliances in a house, especially in a bedroom. They explained to me that on the day an unvented appliance is installed, assuming the installer does a perfect job, everything may work as advertised. However, as the unit gets older, things start to deteriorate, and the efficiency of the clean burning continues to go down, thereby, putting more CO in the house. They say the same thing for CO detectors - in the begining they work fairly well, but over time loose their sensitivity, and lead to a false sense of security. Couple the unvented gas appliance and perhaps a tired or worn out CO detector together, and ask youself the question, is it worth taking a chance on my health?
This same lab suggests that if anyone installs an unvented gas burning appliance they should have it tested every year before use to determine the amount of CO it is allowing to excape. They do not recommend you buy a fancy CO meter and test it yourself, but that a long burn test be performed. Apparently when you first start an unvented appliance, all of them emit a lot of CO, but as they heat up, the CO starts to decrease. This lab wants to measure the CO produced over a couple of hours. They also recommend not one but 2 or more CO detectors installed in the room with the appliance. With the mass production of CO detectors it is too easy to get a bad one. With 2 or more, you have a better chance of getting a good one. They also recommending changing one of the CO detectors each year, so that you always have a new or fresh one in the room. Even with these recommendations, they would never advise anyone to install one in a bedroom, or to leave one burning when everyone in the house is asleep. There is just too much opportunity for an accident.
I know I sound a little paranoid, and I probably am. CO scares the heck out of me because it is odorless/colorless, and DANGEROUS.
Let me share a story with you as to why I'm scared of it.
I'm a home inspector. A couple of years ago I was asked to inspect a local house. The house had just been built and the family who bought the house had just moved in. When I was asked to inspect the house, I wondered why I was inspecting a house that was already closed and occupied, but the couple explained they just wanted an independent opinion of the house.
Everything was going well with the inspection until I got to the master bedroom. The builder had placed a gas water heater in a room behind the master bedroom closet. There is a full size door to the master bedroom closet, then another full size door from that closet to an attic storage room that contained the water heater.
When I went into the storage room to inspect it and the water heater, I noticed the exhaust vent was only halfway covering the top of the water heater. There was also a dent in the side of the metal vent. It looked like something had hit the vent and knocked it to the side.
I took pictures of it and wrote in my report that it should be repaired immediately, and that the couple should always keep the door to the storage room closed, as well as the door to the bedroom closet.
After the inspection I explained my findings to the couple. They wanted to see the closet and water heater and vent. They asked me what could happen if the doors were left open. I explained that it would be possible for the HVAC cold air return in the master bedroom to draw CO from the water heater and distribute it throughout the 2nd floor, which was all bedrooms. We talked about CO being colorless/odorless gas and they could end up getting sick, or worse. They asked me if I was sure this could happen. By now, I'm starting to wonder why they are focusing on this problem so much, and asked them if something had happened.
As it turns out, when the couple moved in, they decided to store some items in the closet with the water heater. When moving the items, the husband accidently hit the vent pipe causing it to move off center. He saw where he dented the pipe but didn't think much else about it.
That night, after a hard day of moving, husband, wife, and daughter all take a shower then go to bed. Sure enough, they left the doors to the closets open, and the cold air return draws CO in from the water heater and distributes it throughout the second floor.
The next morning all 3 wake up and everyone thinks they have the flu. They decide to go to the emergency room. All 3 have CO poisoning. The hospital called the gas company who came out and inspected the house, then condemned it. They came to the same conclusion I did. The family was treated in the emergency room and released and told not to stay in the house until the water heater was repaired.
They called me just for a 2nd opinion. When my opinion agreed with the gas company, they had the vent repaired, and everything turned out well for them.
Granted this is but one example of CO poisoning, but it is a real and scary story. It is also why I would never trust an unvented gas appliance in a bedroom.
This same lab suggests that if anyone installs an unvented gas burning appliance they should have it tested every year before use to determine the amount of CO it is allowing to excape. They do not recommend you buy a fancy CO meter and test it yourself, but that a long burn test be performed. Apparently when you first start an unvented appliance, all of them emit a lot of CO, but as they heat up, the CO starts to decrease. This lab wants to measure the CO produced over a couple of hours. They also recommend not one but 2 or more CO detectors installed in the room with the appliance. With the mass production of CO detectors it is too easy to get a bad one. With 2 or more, you have a better chance of getting a good one. They also recommending changing one of the CO detectors each year, so that you always have a new or fresh one in the room. Even with these recommendations, they would never advise anyone to install one in a bedroom, or to leave one burning when everyone in the house is asleep. There is just too much opportunity for an accident.
I know I sound a little paranoid, and I probably am. CO scares the heck out of me because it is odorless/colorless, and DANGEROUS.
Let me share a story with you as to why I'm scared of it.
I'm a home inspector. A couple of years ago I was asked to inspect a local house. The house had just been built and the family who bought the house had just moved in. When I was asked to inspect the house, I wondered why I was inspecting a house that was already closed and occupied, but the couple explained they just wanted an independent opinion of the house.
Everything was going well with the inspection until I got to the master bedroom. The builder had placed a gas water heater in a room behind the master bedroom closet. There is a full size door to the master bedroom closet, then another full size door from that closet to an attic storage room that contained the water heater.
When I went into the storage room to inspect it and the water heater, I noticed the exhaust vent was only halfway covering the top of the water heater. There was also a dent in the side of the metal vent. It looked like something had hit the vent and knocked it to the side.
I took pictures of it and wrote in my report that it should be repaired immediately, and that the couple should always keep the door to the storage room closed, as well as the door to the bedroom closet.
After the inspection I explained my findings to the couple. They wanted to see the closet and water heater and vent. They asked me what could happen if the doors were left open. I explained that it would be possible for the HVAC cold air return in the master bedroom to draw CO from the water heater and distribute it throughout the 2nd floor, which was all bedrooms. We talked about CO being colorless/odorless gas and they could end up getting sick, or worse. They asked me if I was sure this could happen. By now, I'm starting to wonder why they are focusing on this problem so much, and asked them if something had happened.
As it turns out, when the couple moved in, they decided to store some items in the closet with the water heater. When moving the items, the husband accidently hit the vent pipe causing it to move off center. He saw where he dented the pipe but didn't think much else about it.
That night, after a hard day of moving, husband, wife, and daughter all take a shower then go to bed. Sure enough, they left the doors to the closets open, and the cold air return draws CO in from the water heater and distributes it throughout the second floor.
The next morning all 3 wake up and everyone thinks they have the flu. They decide to go to the emergency room. All 3 have CO poisoning. The hospital called the gas company who came out and inspected the house, then condemned it. They came to the same conclusion I did. The family was treated in the emergency room and released and told not to stay in the house until the water heater was repaired.
They called me just for a 2nd opinion. When my opinion agreed with the gas company, they had the vent repaired, and everything turned out well for them.
Granted this is but one example of CO poisoning, but it is a real and scary story. It is also why I would never trust an unvented gas appliance in a bedroom.
boustany
Platinum Member
Plamas may be the most expensive TVs but they aren't the best. Image quality is relatively poor (there is noise in the image, and many more affordable units can only handle 480P). Plus they burn in quickly and lose blue in particular, and worst of all, they are pretty much irreparable.
I could afford it, but I wouldn't own a plasma TV unless they were much cheaper than DLP or LCOS, which have better quality, more stability, etc..
I have a DLP from Samsung. It is very light and relatively thin (about 16" or so). If you can figure out how to deal with the heat problem, you could mount a DLP TV such that it only intrudes 4" or so on the other side of a wall. Flat screen dimensions, DLP quality and price. LCOS sets are coming out in numbers, so you should see LCOS and DLP drop in price quite rapidly - they are already about 1/2 the price of plasma.
I could afford it, but I wouldn't own a plasma TV unless they were much cheaper than DLP or LCOS, which have better quality, more stability, etc..
I have a DLP from Samsung. It is very light and relatively thin (about 16" or so). If you can figure out how to deal with the heat problem, you could mount a DLP TV such that it only intrudes 4" or so on the other side of a wall. Flat screen dimensions, DLP quality and price. LCOS sets are coming out in numbers, so you should see LCOS and DLP drop in price quite rapidly - they are already about 1/2 the price of plasma.