Plumbers: Inline pressure balance valves?? Questions?

[LD1]

I grew up in an old farm house and was used to the occasional increase in temp when someone flushed a toilet. Just thought thats the way things were, and anytime someone was in the shower, you didnt run water period.

When I got a house of my own, it was more modern. Never new what anti-scald or pressure balance fixtures were. Until I owned my house. Boy was it nice. Didnt have to worry about wife doing a load of dishes or laundry, or one of the kids flushing a toilet.

Fast foward to now, I live in a 1987 house that doesnt have this luxury. And want to correct that.

The way the house is laid out, I "could" access the back side of one of the showers via removing drywall in one of the closets. But really dont want to, nor do I want to change the fixtures. The other shower would be nearly impossible to access the back side, as the back side would be into the one-piece tub shower of the other bathroom.

So was doing some research and came across inline pressure balance valves. But not alot of info on how to install.

Basement is all open (unfinished) and I have access to all the plumbing. So some questions

1. Do I need one for each shower or will one work for both?
2. How well do they actually work being farther away from the shower?
3. If one will work, should it be mounted as close to where the two showers split off? Or closer to the waterheater/source? Or does it matter?

Any reccomendations on ones that are good? ones to avoid?

 

[Paddy]

I would imagine it's based on how complex your plumbing is. The entire principle of balance is last stop for the cold and hot. Any cold or hot coming off after the aftermarket balancing would defeat it.

I'd up grade the fixture where you have access. Bad layout on the other, at some point all fixtures will need servicing.

 

[Raspy]

Don't know if this would work for you, but it would be nice if you could run a new hot and cold directly to the master bath that didn't have drops along the way for the washer and other toilets. The lines would come from the water heater area where the cold tees to become hot and feeds on to supply all the colds.

 

[LD1]

What would be the reason for new lines running to the master? What would that accomplish?

Why would nothing after the device get "pressure-balanced"?

If cold water is turned on at any faucet, before OR after the decvice, would cause a pressure drop in the WHOLE system. So I am not sure I understand the comment that it wouldnt balance if anything was turned on after.

As far as servicing the valves, yea, I aggre its a bad layout. But aside from sweating in a whole new fixture, any servicing or rebuilds of the mixer can all be done from the shower side.

BAsement plumbing is not complicated, but the way its laid out, it would be hard to put a balance valve in that "didnt" have something other than the shower downstream of it. Possible, yea I could probably put two devices in, one on each shower. But would be alot easier to just put one in. Which would put ALL the fixtures after it.

here is the basement.

See the pic of plumbing. Bathroom water has a hot and cold going to each bath. Somewhere up inside the wall is where it splits off for the toilets and sinks in the bath. So it would be inpossible from the basement, to put ANY device AFTER those but before the showers.



Square yellow boxes are potential places to install.
#1 would only cover master bath
#2 would cover BOTH bathrooms, including the sinks and toilets in those bathrooms, but nothing else
#3 would cover the whole house, which only adds the additional drops for the washer, and the run to the kitchen.

 

[Raspy]

LD1,

The reason for new lines, if it's an easy installation, is that if you have a 1/2" cold line, for instance, feeding the master bath, and on the way it also feeds the washing machine, when the washer comes on it has less pressure on the cold side, at the master, and the water at the shower will get hotter.

It seems most houses have the cold from the street going to a tee near the water heater. One side becomes cold for the whole house and the other becomes hot for the whole house. So, if new dedicated lines are run from that area, there can't be a pressure drop on only one of them, if the washer fills.

Since this is an existing house the line sizes are already in place. If they were larger, it might not be a problem in the first place. I ran 1" lines for most of my plumbing and ran separate supplies from a central source to the baths and kitchen. Temperature fluctuation has never been a problem.

 

[LD1]

It's 3/4 copper plumbing to everything.

I don't think it matters much how the lines are plumbed and what sizes. If there is an additional draw on one side, it creates a temp change.

Thus my inquiry into the inline balance valve.

I just realized the pic never uploaded. Will have to try again when in get home in the morning.

Judging by the lack of responses it seems these aren't too common.

Really need to know if I just need 1 or 2, and where is the best place to install them.

 

[LD1]

I edited my earlier post of the pics of the plumbing. For whatever reason my attachment didnt work yesterday.

 

[teejk]

I think any pressure balance mechanism I have ever see has been in a shower fixture where it can be easily accessed and adjusted if needed. I can't think of any other fixture where it would be needed. Whatever you decide on an "in-line" valve, I would make sure it could be accessed.

 

[LD1]

I think any pressure balance mechanism I have ever see has been in a shower fixture where it can be easily accessed and adjusted if needed. I can't think of any other fixture where it would be needed. Whatever you decide on an "in-line" valve, I would make sure it could be accessed.

That is the reason for wanting to go with an inline valve.....is because I CANNOT easily access the shower fixtures. Main bath has a 1-piece tub-shower. The backside of it is in the master closet, and drywalled.

The master shower is a standup shower, backside of it....is the one-piece shower of the main.

Current fixtures do NOT have the pressure balance the house was built before they became the requirement and the "norm"

I have open access in the basement.

This is just a random one, and not the one I plan to buy as I havent researched much yet (was hoping for a little more feedback here), but something like this would be pretty easy to install in the basement In-Line Pressure Balancing Valve - Decor Island

But my questions remain.....is it best to get two and try to install as close to the showers as I can? Or a single one as close to the "pair" of showers? Or a single one back near the waterheater? OR does it even really matter?

I may install it back near the water heater, since its pex. When I installed my geothermal, it had a desuperheater that got tied into my hot water. And a second storage tank. So I plumbed everything in PEX, and tied back into the copper.

 

[teejk]

That is the reason for wanting to go with an inline valve.....is because I CANNOT easily access the shower fixtures. Main bath has a 1-piece tub-shower. The backside of it is in the master closet, and drywalled.

The master shower is a standup shower, backside of it....is the one-piece shower of the main.

Current fixtures do NOT have the pressure balance the house was built before they became the requirement and the "norm"

I have open access in the basement.

This is just a random one, and not the one I plan to buy as I havent researched much yet (was hoping for a little more feedback here), but something like this would be pretty easy to install in the basement In-Line Pressure Balancing Valve - Decor Island

But my questions remain.....is it best to get two and try to install as close to the showers as I can? Or a single one as close to the "pair" of showers? Or a single one back near the waterheater? OR does it even really matter?

I may install it back near the water heater, since its pex. When I installed my geothermal, it had a desuperheater that got tied into my hot water. And a second storage tank. So I plumbed everything in PEX, and tied back into the copper.

My shower valves (Moen) grant access to the balance mechanism (more of a temp balancer than pressure) by removing the trim plate from the shower side. I'm pretty sure Delta and others are the same. I've done a lot of plumbing and have to say that I've never seen an in-line valve but I'll take a look at your link (I crave knowledge). I do recall seeing an article years ago about plumbing with a "water distribution ring" (essentially a manifold) but never knew anybody that used it.

 

[LD1]

Well, been doing some more research and called a few places today. I dont think the inline will work. I had the wrong line of thinking. I think:confused2:

In the basement, I have a hot and cold going up into the wall. From there, up inside the wall where i cannot see, is where it tees off for the sink and toilet.

If I put the balance valve in the basement, the outlet side of that valve is hooked to the sink, toilet, AND shower. The way the balance valve works is if there is a pressure difference on the inlet, it compensates.

IE: if running shower, my water pressures are both 60psi, then it outlets 60psi. If it sees a drop on the cold inlet to 40psi (someone flushed a toilet), it reduces hot down to 40 psi as well instead of leaving it at 60 psi and making the shower hotter. Well...even if someone flushes a toilet on the OUTLET side of the PBV....it still causes the same pressure drop on the inlet side right.....so all is good. or so i though.

What I wasnt accounting for was flow. While its true that a pressure drop AFTER the valve also means a pressure drop BEFORE the valve, and thus the valve will compensate.....its all about flow. IF I have my shower set to a temp that I like, and both lines are 60PSI......the temp is gonna be the same even if both lines coming out of the mixer drop to 40psi......UNLESS.......the pressure drop was caused after the mixer. Because now the 40psi out of the balance valve....that flow is being split between the shower and the toilet. So while pressure on hot and cold are still the same at the balance valve.......all that water going to the toilet to fill it, is water NOT coming out of the shower head and causing the shower to still get hot.

My concern, even with overly large beauty rings on the front, is just not having enough room to get in there and solder fittings on.

What I am looking into now, is the level of difficulty of removing the stand up shower, or at least just the part covering the fixtures. IF that will grant me access, that will take care of that shower. Then I would have no problem cutting a hole in my master bedroom closet to do the other shower head.

 

[the old grind]

I don't think you want to sweat copper through a one-piece unless you have a LOT of practice doing so in tight quarters. (we pre-assemble our stubs for builds that aren't drywalled yet) Good that you have 3/4" lines, as 1/2" shouldn't serve more than one fixture (code here for many yrs), but IMO most add-on valves are better at moderating surges than balancing H/C.

I might just risk the labor and ugliness of patching the closet wall and install a new shower valve with anti-scald protection and forget guessing whether a balance valve(s) is placed properly in the system. Nice to have access from below, but remember the guy who lost a quarter? He was looking for it two houses away because the light was brighter under the streetlight.

I had an 'blender' (check valve between hot & cold) on a 'closet' (our term) that mixed-in hot water to keep the tank from sweating. Once it stuck open you would get a brief rush of hot water in sink or tub from the cold valve as it back-fed from the stool. The house had municipal water of high quality, but something had scaled up within the valve and it stuck open. Anti-scald shower valves (most codes, now) have rendered such 'patches' obsolete, anyway.

Delta shower valves (they don't make a 3-handle, btw) can be serviced (cartridges/o'rings) and the temp adjusted by removing the handle and trim ring, once installed, so there's no fiddling, 'flow chart' confusion, or trial and error with the install. The type also moderates the difference in HW temp going from cut-on to cut-off, not just expect balancing pressure to attain a constant 'blended' temp.

IMHO, there is no box to 'think out of' here. I wouldn't overengineer this and would avoid gymnastics that might risk damaging the 1-pc S/T insert. t o g (now maint. supt, B___h Plumbing)

 

[teejk]

I don't think you want to sweat copper through a one-piece unless you have a LOT of practice doing so in tight quarters. (we pre-assemble our stubs for builds that aren't drywalled yet) Good that you have 3/4" lines, as 1/2" shouldn't serve more than one fixture (code here for many yrs), but IMO most add-on valves are better at moderating surges than balancing H/C.

I might just risk the labor and ugliness of patching the closet wall and install a new shower valve with anti-scald protection and forget guessing whether a balance valve(s) is placed properly in the system. Nice to have access from below, but remember the guy who lost a quarter? He was looking for it two houses away because the light was brighter under the streetlight.

I had an 'blender' (check valve between hot & cold) on a 'closet' (our term) that mixed-in hot water to keep the tank from sweating. Once it stuck open you would get a brief rush of hot water in sink or tub from the cold valve as it back-fed from the stool. The house had municipal water of high quality, but something had scaled up within the valve and it stuck open. Anti-scald shower valves (most codes, now) have rendered such 'patches' obsolete, anyway.

Delta shower valves (they don't make a 3-handle, btw) can be serviced (cartridges/o'rings) and the temp adjusted by removing the handle and trim ring, once installed, so there's no fiddling, 'flow chart' confusion, or trial and error with the install. The type also moderates the difference in HW temp going from cut-on to cut-off, not just expect balancing pressure to attain a constant 'blended' temp.

IMHO, there is no box to 'think out of' here. I wouldn't overengineer this and would avoid gymnastics that might risk damaging the 1-pc S/T insert. t o g (now maint. supt, B___h Plumbing)

Excellent advice on many points, not the least of which is how torches and acrylic surrounds/tubs are a bad combination. When I installed the tub in this house my plumber friend warned me about that. So I resorted to the Shark-bites" (leary about using them behind a closed wall because while they are a very good product, nobody is quite sure yet for how long). I built the base for the tub and was able to incorporate a removable panel that looks like it is part of the base but very close inspection will reveal the screws. As for code, I think it now says that any fixture will be supplied with 3/4" and the only permissible "Tees" to 1/2" would be to a toilet or water fountain. I could be wrong on that but that's how my plumber friend did it here and at my MIL's house when we stripped the rotten copper in favor of PEX.

 

[LD1]

I might just risk the labor and ugliness of patching the closet wall and install a new shower valve with anti-scald protection and forget guessing whether a balance valve(s) is placed properly in the system. Nice to have access from below, but remember the guy who lost a quarter? He was looking for it two houses away because the light was brighter under the streetlight.

It is done and thats what I did.

I removed the wall section of the stand-up shower to access that plumbing.

Cut a ~12x12 hole in the wall of the master closet to access the other bath plumbing.

Went to lowes and bought a couple moen faucets and a handfull of pex fittings. Sweated copper to pex adapters to the existing lines, and it was all down hill from there.