Plumbing Help

[cmuncy]

I am currently in the process of building my house in my own little woods. The issue at hand is getting water to my humble abode.

The water main is 8" pipe at about 65 psi. I have a choice of the standard 5/8" water meter at a given tap fee and monthly tarriff or upgrade to a 1" meter and corresponding increase in fees.

THe dilemma is that I have to run almost 850' of water line down a 30 to 40' grade to my house.

I am trying to determine if I should splurge for the 1" tap and use 1" or 1 1/2" pipe to my house or would the 5/8" meter be adequate??

5/8" tap and fees will be about $750.00 plus 33.00 a month plus usage.

1" tap and fees will run almost $1200.00 and $52.00 a month plus fees.

Other than the house and my shop, the only other watering area might be a small yard plus my horses.

I have also heard from *experts* that I might need an accumulator at the house to equalize pressure surges due to the head pressure from 850' of 1 1/2" pipe.

Anyone out there clear up this mud??

THanks /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[bgott]

I tried finding a water pressure drop calculator on Google and came up with quite a few. One of them was uncomplicated enough to get a simple calc of the run you are making. This is without the elevation drop figured in. I ran 5/8" pipe through it for giggles and it showed a pressure drop of 49 psi and change. 1" showed 5 psi and change and 1.5 " showed .77 psi drop. Bigger is better on the line. I figured it at the default of 4 gallons per minute. You probably already knew this. Being that the restriction, the tap, is at the start of the run I doubt that the smaller tap will make any difference in pressure, it will just affect your volume as compared to the larger tap. I have a couple of small trailer parks that have three units on a single 5/8" tap and haven't had any complaints of water pressure dropping. You also have the 40' drop in the line to speed things up, you will probably gain pressure at the end of the line. Think mini water tower. You will know if you need an accumulator the first time you run a faucet wide open and slam it shut, they aren't that hard to install and you can build one yourself easily enough. I'm sure somebody that knows a lot more about this will chime in but I'd go with the 5/8" tap and the 1 1/2" pipe.

http://www.aps.anl.gov/asd/me/Calculators/film_coeff_dp.html

 

[Bird]

Without all the calculations, technical knowledge, etc.; just my experience as a member of the board of directors for our water company, I agree. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Almost no one in our area, except commercial accounts, used the 1" tap. I know at least one neighbor had the 5/8" tap and meter, then 1200' from the meter to his house, no accumulator, had several outside faucets to water lawn and garden, and to fill water tanks for cattle.

 

[Egon]

The pressure differential across a 5/8 or 1 in valve should
not be that much for regular household flow use. Using a larger pipe for the long run will help reduce frictional losses. You'll gain .433 psi per foot of water height difference. If the pressure becomes a problem install a regulator.

Egon

 

[Dave___in___CT]

Hi...


After 10 years... the 1" costs at least an extra $2,730... not counting lost interest...


Dave...

 

[Egon]

Somehow [ but whats new for me ] my post was suppossed to indicate the 5/8 would be plenty but it surely didn't.

Egon

 

[SPIKER]

I would go with the other guys said, stick with the 5/*" tap, but run larger dia line, the 1.5" would be great, and with that fall of 40' you will gain more pressure than what is at the street, as for an accumeulator, you can install one of the SMALL watter pressure tanks at the house incoming line just like what you have tor rural well water, they are cheap and will give you added volume in a pinch as well as stopping the water hammer effect when a fauset is shut on/off quickly. maybe think about adding some filters on the incomming line to for added safety from the water setting in the line a long time. rural water around here tastes very fishy but it is pumped straight from lake erie @ the loriane water plant... by the time it takes it's journy from there to here, probalby 60miles it has it's good and bad days for taste & smell...

MarkM

 

[cmuncy]

For starters, thanks for all the replys. It looks like the 5/8" with 1 1/2" pipe wil lbe the way to go. If for some reason I have issues, I can always upgrade later.

For the second question: is there another material alternative for the 1 1/2" x 20' pvc pipe to make the 800'+ run to the house?? For exxample: is there a "pvc pipe on a role" that could be bought in one continuous piece??

Thanks again guys.

Chris

 

[boustany]

Looking at your most made me glad I have a well

Better quality water & less expensive.

 

[chim]

"Pipe on a roll" is the only way to go. I don't know what the max length available may be, but any decent supply house will stock it. I installed a one-piece run of nearly 300' at my place. The water main for the nearest town goes past our house, and I had to run from the main to the house via a metering pit. I used 1" pipe, and we have plenty of pressure/volume.

One pointer - when you install the pipe, don't connect the ends prior to backfilling. A bud had an installation between two buildings and made the connections on both ends, then backfilled. The (black) pipe had spent time in the sun, and warmed up consideraably. When he backfilled, the pipe cooled/contracted and pulled apart at the connections.......................chim

 

[Junkman]

You can use a black plastic pipe that comes in a roll. I have found it in 100/250/500' rolls in the past. I was told that you can get larger rolls by special order. The "real" question, is, if it goes bad, how do you deal with that problem? In the past, they would use copper pipe and it would last almost a life time. I don't know what the life expectancy of plastic pipe is. If you are planning on this being the last home you will ever own, then I suggest that you install the black plastic inside a 1 1/2" PVC conduit. That way, you can always pull it out and replace it when it goes bad. If not, then you have to dig up the entire run with a backhoe if it springs a leak. I have had to replace my black plastic pipe in my well once in 20 years, so this might be one of those things that you don't mind gambling on. I dread the though of replacing my line from the well to the house. It was installed in the 4" drain PVC and I found that it had crushed in one area when we were digging for the house addition.. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif So far, the pipe inside is still OK. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[dummy]

<font color="blue"> If not, then you have to dig up the entire run with a backhoe if it springs a leak. </font> You dig up the section, add a coupler and two SS hose clamps. Not all of us have the latitudes offered by a leisurely retirement lifestyle. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Depending on type and manufacturer, it's rated for between 30 years and homeowners lifetime pwpipe

 

[DiskDoctr]

Chris,

As far as the black pipe, that's the way I'd go. Check your local wholesale plumbing supply house. Don't count on Lowes for that length and $$.

As for lifespan, we have lines that are about 30 years old, and no problems.

I will recommend one thing, though. Put some soft materials in the ditch first and then cover the pipe with it before filling it in. The number one thing to watch out for is any rocks or stones that can pinch or work their way against the pipe. This kind of problem later is almost impossible to locate.

Also, once you go over 1", it gets considerably more expensive. The wall is much thicker.

Here is what I paid on 10/6/03 in Western PA.

300' 1" 160psi black plastic pipe $.24/ft = $ 72.00
250' 1.5" 160psi black plastic pipe $.60/ft = $ 172.50

Your prices may be different, but these are less than a year old to use as a guideline. This place usually runs about 10% less than Lowes.

Good luck.

-JC

 

[Egon]

Perhaps also pressure test the pipe before final filling.

Egon

 

[MarkV]

I’m with Diskdoctr when he recommends a soft material like sand to surround the pipe. Some areas require that there be a sand bed for the line to prevent problems with rocks during frost heave. Another item I always thought was worth the effort is putting in a warning tape for future digging. After backfilling the first foot or so of your trench lay in a roll of caution tape, the kind used to mark off a restricted area, before the rest of the backfill. Years from now when the location of the line is forgotten a backhoe will pull up the tape before hitting the water line.

MarkV

 

[Egon]

A locator wire could also be run with the pipe.

Egon

 

[herdfan]

Ditto on the sand or pipe-in-a-pie to avoid the rocks
A tiny hole in the pipe will be almost impossible to find, so best avoid it in the first place.

I like the idea of the caution tape in the trench. I may do that at my place!

 

[SPIKER]

When you buy that stuff the ends are sealed together, there should be a pressure INSIDE the line after setting in the sun, if no pressure there MAY be a leak in the line... it does work well though, I got 1" running from the house to the barn 160psi, there is also 100 psi but that is much thinner. look for plumbing supply houses. run some phone line over the top or get a cheap roll of electrical wire, and run that in with the pipe for finding also use the tape over the top 12" like mentioned. the sand may not be needed. you CAN do it but if you clean the bottom and use clean fill on top then it should not be amajor problem, but that is a LONG run and like others said locating a leak is dang near impossable untill it bursts... it should last 50+ years form what I;ve been told, some of them even have lifetime warrenty and others say 25 years... like the NEW PEX stuff most of it is lifetime and rest is 25+ years...

Mark M

 

[txdon]

I have 3/4" at the meter and go to 2" PVC for 2000' and up 50' elevation. No pressure problems. When installing watch out for temperature changes that affect the expansion and contraction of the PVC before you cover it up. My Dad and I laid the PVC on a cool morning and when the sun warmed up in the afternoon the PVC expanded and snaked out of the trench. We had to wait till the next morning for the PVC to contract so it would go back in the trench before we could cover it up.

 

[fractal]

My experience has been that metal water mains deliver pinholes from electrolitic or whatever action it is and plastic pipe gets eaten by varmits and torn up by roots. The plastic lined pipe that comes on big giant rolls is what is the pros seem to recommend. They back the truck up and pull as much as you need off the truck. It is probably as cheap if not cheaper in the quantity you need than segmented pipe.

You won't need more than a 5/8 meter for your house.

I seem to remember from my scuba days that 35 ft depth in fresh water is 1 atmosphere pressure so your 30-40 ft drop will be one atmosphere more pressure (15 psi or so).

60 psi is pretty close to the ideal water pressure in a house. I have 120-140 psi at the curb and have to run a regulator. The regulator on the irrigation circuits stopped working and it blew all the irrigation pipe apart faster than I could patch it. 75 is probably ok, but you might want a regulator just in case.