Pole barn project: Two questions

[LouNY]

When I read the OP's first post two things came to mind for me.
One was that any trees next to a building are going to be an issue sooner or later.
The second was having a retaining wall just 3 feet away from the building, to me that is just going to be a trap for leaves and debris
to gather in and cause troubles. Often around here a pole barn on un level sites is quite common I have seen many were the base was dug out
to floor level and ground contact treated lumber is used for the wall till a foot or two above the outside grade which is then backfilled to the original grade.
In effect reducing the outside wall height.
Also most of our pole barns require a concrete pad under the poles so the holes are 18-24 inch diameter with 6 inches of concrete poured and cured before the poles are set.
You can tell who didn't use footer pads in a few years the outside roof line has a wave in it from a pole or two settling.

 

[EddieWalker]

I couldn't get your link to open, so I'm just guessing about the trees. If a tree can drop a branch on a building, it will. Shade is nice from trees, but most of the time, they cause more damage then they are worth. I would remove every tree that is close to the building. A trees roots go out as far as the canopy, if you remove dirt under the canopy of the tree, you risk killing it. With some trees, just driving over the roots will kill it. Most trees take a couple of years to die, so when you are done building your barn, the tree will die the following year when it's a lot harder to remove it. In most construction, it is better to remove the trees and then plant new ones where you want them.

Railroad ties rot out from the inside and even though they still look good ten years from now, they will be full of bugs and become worthless very quickly. I would seriously consider using retaining wall blocks. They will never rot on you, and in worse case scenario that they fail, you just stack them up again and make your drainage better.

From what I know about 3 point post hole diggers on the back of a tractor, 3 feet deep is all you will get out of them. You can add an extension, but then it's hard to get the auger out and you are creating a lot more work having to take the auger off and on to install the extension. 3 feet is also about as far down as you can go with clamshells. the make a type that the handles are crossed so you can get deeper, but I've never used them and don't know how far you can go down with them.

If you absolutely have to go down 4 feet, then you will need a hydraulic auger attached to the front loader of a skid steer, or excavator. They are pretty common to rent on skid steers, I've never seen them for rent on an excavator.

The smaller you make the hole around the post, the stronger it will be. I would go 12 inches.

Dry concrete is probably fine to fill in around the posts, but I there is more strength in the concrete if you mix it first and then pour it in. Just don't add too much water. Mixing it allows all of the Portland Cement to spread through all of the concrete for maximum strength.

 

[rbstern]

Thanks for the extensive comments, gents.

Here's the tree pic again:



I can certainly remove the trees. I can also move the barn forward five or six feet.

Not sure on the wall construction. My one railroad tie wall is now ten years old, and it's 100% solid, except for a few bullet holes (backstop for a shooting berm). Could be really heavily treated ties, or they just don't see much moisture. Or maybe the microbes don't like lead?

 

[i7win7]

You must have different rental places by you. Around here 1 day rental is 8 hours on the machine's hour meter. And you can pick up at the end of the day, but it has to be returned by closing on Saturday or they charge you two days.

Around here, heavy equipment that has to be trailered, they deliver & pickup. Hour meter doesn't run when shut off setting posts - probably why weekend is just a daily rate for typical home owner rental.

 

[rbstern]

Heard back from the local rental franchise. Closest available PTO auger is 250 miles away. Best they've got for augering is a 2 man handheld unit with a 12" bit and an extension.

The search continues...

 

[ning]

Heard back from the local rental franchise. Closest available PTO auger is 250 miles away. Best they've got for augering is a 2 man handheld unit with a 12" bit and an extension.

The search continues...

They don't have a skidsteer mounted auger?

 

[rbstern]

They don't have a skidsteer mounted auger?

I asked the location manager to let me know what they had that could drill a hole 12 to 16 inches in diameter, four feet deep. The two man auger was the response I got.

 

[JimRB]

Where is this barn going in, where do you live? At least a third of Georgia was covered with the ocean so there is lots of sand. I live north of the fall line by 30 miles or more. I have lots of red clay, some rocks here and there and some black granite. Fortunately when I built the house and my 36x72 pole barn I did not hit any of that black granite. I graded the barn area. I marked 28 poles and used a 12" auger to dig. I think one hole was in the correct place. I hand scraped and practically redug some holes with a post hole digger with long handles and a 4 foot mark on the handles. A few months of weekend work and I had all my poles installed. 28 6x6 16 and 20 foot long 20 4x6 16 foot long. Yes the math is fuzzy as I do not remember if I dug the holes with the auger for the 4x6 at the same time I dug the 6x6 pole holes. Digging lots of holes toughened me up so tipping those poles in the holes by hand was just work. Some gravel in the bottoms of the holes before tossing the poles in. Lift the pole up and slam down a few times to compact. Measure, brace and plumb pole. Hand mix a few bags or more of concrete to set the pole. repeat again and again. i was off a 1/4inch if I recall correctly, maybe a half in on the 36 wide on one end but pretty square.

Digging holes now is easier with some soil moisture than in the middle of a draught.

A 30x36 could be just be 8-12 poles. If you do not have rocks, hand digging with a hand post hole digger is just a few days. I would find the local fence guy and have him or her dig your holes for $400 with their auger. The two man auger means you will make an enemy of a friend. Not a big fan of that tool.

The $800 auger from TSC can be sold afterwards for half price then you do not have it sitting around in your yard getting in the way.

My story of how I spent the summer of 1996 after watching some Atlanta Olympics. I think I was done by November or so. Pole Barn Building

 

[rbstern]

Where is this barn going in, where do you live? At least a third of Georgia was covered with the ocean so there is lots of sand.

N. Georgia, I-85 corridor, just before SC. Soil is firm, heavy red clay. Not much sand around here. My plan is a monitor barn. 16 poles. I'm not afraid of hand digging, if it comes to that. I'm not on a tight schedule.

Thanks for sharing the story of your build!

 

[EddieWalker]

Sounds like good building soil. Why do you have to go 4 feet down? Here in East Texas, I have red clay and 3 foot holes are plenty for posts. Nothing wrong with 4 feet, but that extra foot is going to be very difficult.

As for buying a 3 point auger, I didnt think I needed one, but I got a great deal on it when I bought my tractor, that I couldn't resist. Even though I might not use it for a year or 2, when I do have something come up, it becomes my favorite tool. My wife loved it for planting her fruit trees!!!!