Portable generators - cast iron cylinder liner or not ?

[BobRip]

My experience with engines is that the owner maintenance is the major factor affecting reliability. If you don't run it, I don't care what your bearings are made of the gasoline will gum up the carburetor. Not changing the oil will ruin the most expensive bearings. Etc.

Generators don't give up on people, people give up on maintenance.

 

[Soundguy]

Agreed, those zip ties could address my lousy memory. Storage issue solved.

With the possible exception of Honda, I wouldn't run the gen with that strapped on - vibration would kill most discrete battery chargers pretty quick.

Rgds, D.

???? it's a transformer and diodes?

on the built in ones on the genny.. it could be a seperate tap on the head.. and those still get vibrations.... yet there are still diodes.

I don't see a bit of difference.

my truck drives around all day with a built in block heater and power cord. plus a trickle charger. it's never died.

I doubt there will be an issue if it is securely mounted. the genny already has electronics in it...

 

[Larry Caldwell]

By far the most important engine feature is a pressure oiling system with an oil filter. That will do a lot to extend an engine's service life. Yes, synthetic oil is important, because synthetic is more temperature stable and won't break down like dinosaur oil. I use Castrol, but Mobil 1 or any other brand will work fine. Check the amperage on the 12 volt outlet on a generator. It may be worth less than you think. I have one that has a 10 amp breaker, and it won't charge a car battery without tripping, or I need to wire a 1 ohm power resistor in series to keep it from tripping. What I do instead is plug in a battery charger.

 

[3930dave]

Honda inverter gens are great, a friend has a 3kw one. Excellent on fuel, super quiet. Most/all Honda inverters are cast iron sleeved. Then there's the price...... not saying they aren't worth it, mostly just a budget reality at my end.

Soundguy - you've played (meaning worked on) with electronic hardware. Look at an engine computer board - aside from moisture, the other reason that a decently designed one has 1/2" or so of potting compound on it is to deal with vibration. SM devices are (mostly) lower mass/profile than older through hole ones, but still.... vibration beats the heck out of solder connections (well, actually any mechanical junction - look at the front end of truck), given enough time. As you have no doubt fixed on many things, the stress points are high on cables, as they enter/exit an assembly - high vibration applications are esp. tough on cables, connectors, strain relief points.

Modern potting compounds are pretty impressive, many automotive ones are more like gel insole material - they remain permanently flexible so that they continue to dampen vibrations, not just physically stabilize the part.

For cost reasons, non-automotive consumer electronics don't bother with potting compound to seal/protect their boards. Not saying that a discrete charger will fail after 20 minutes of being strapped to a generator, I'm saying that most will have their operating life reduced (MTBF #s go down). In today's world, my line of thinking is not viewed as "normal" in this regard - the analog battery charger I referenced is over 30 years old - consumers are expected to pitch their electronic toys in 18 months - 3 years max - my lifespan comments may make sense to some TBN'ers, but not the general public.

Enough about the world I used to live in..... as I said, the 12v O/P is not a deal breaker, and I'm realistic about what it can/can not do. I don't expect that output to jump start a dead battery on a 300hp tractor, I just want it for light trickle charging (say 5 amps max) occasionally.

Agreed on maintenance being important. The old gen I had stored had been run dry of gas before storage, oil was just changed at time of storage. Carb valves/seats can fail/stick over time, not unknown to Briggs. Stuff happens, even with decent maintenance - that is why all good industrial/medical/Mil programs test generators regularly - something I have to do a better job of personally.

Rgds, D.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

On board 12v charging - not a $ consideration for me. I'm not at all impressed with what I've seen of discrete modern digitally controlled 12v battery chargers - the ones I've come across either have been flaky, or just way too quick to go into error mode on batteries that had no problems.

When I need to charge a battery, I just need to charge the darn thing - I don't need to babysit another temperamental piece of unstable digital consumer electronics.

I do have an old analog 12v charger that I rely on a lot. If it dies, I'll either rebuild it, or build an analog 12v charger from scratch. Agreed, I can just plug this charger into a generator, when needed.

I have a Schumacher computerized charger that is the best charger I have ever owned. It will pick up a battery that analog chargers insist will not take a charge, and will put the correct charge in a variety of battery types. However, like generators, I have a variety of battery chargers, including an analog portable, the 30 amp analog that came with the travel trailer that will boil the batteries dry, and a couple of float chargers. If I need to, I can put a quick charger on four 12 volt batteries, and the tractor and travel trailer are always topped off with the float chargers. I don't dis the digitals though. That Schumacher is a champ.

I have a Briggs 2500w older generator, probably much like yours Tenn_B. Just picked up a Carb Rebuild kit for it (it poured gas out of the air filter when I filled it up the other night). Low hours on it, and mostly just my bad for not running it more often; I did store it properly though. I did appreciate being able to find the Briggs carb parts I needed at my local hardware store. The store is perhaps a bit above average, but this illustrates why I went with Briggs before - easy to get parts.

When you store a small engine dry sometimes the carb float sticks and won't shut off the gas flow. The cure is to pick up the engine and drop it about 2 feet. I know that doesn't help if the genset is too heavy to lift, but just picking up the motor end and banging it on concrete will probably jar the float loose. Rebuilding the carb is no guarantee it won't happen again.

Where I'm trying to get to is much like you describe Tenn_B - an older "beater" low power gen for certain things, and a newer, higher power gen, that doesn't get loaned.

I think everybody needs a low power gen just for the fuel savings. I have a little 1000/1200 watt portable that goes camping with me and will run the freezer, refrigerator, computers or entertainment center, though not all at the same time. It will run 4.5 hours on a gallon of gas.

 

[Soundguy]

Soundguy - you've played (meaning worked on) with electronic hardware. Look at an engine computer board - aside from moisture, the other reason that a decently designed one has 1/2" or so of potting compound on it is to deal with vibration. SM devices are (mostly) lower mass/profile than older through hole ones, but still.... vibration beats the heck out of solder connections (well, actually any mechanical junction - look at the front end of truck), given enough time. As you have no doubt fixed on many things, the stress points are high on cables, as they enter/exit an assembly - high vibration applications are esp. tough on cables, connectors, strain relief points.

Modern potting compounds are pretty impressive, many automotive ones are more like gel insole material - they remain permanently flexible so that they continue to dampen vibrations, not just physically stabilize the part.

For cost reasons, non-automotive consumer electronics don't bother with potting compound to seal/protect their boards. Not saying that a discrete charger will fail after 20 minutes of being strapped to a generator, I'm saying that most will have their operating life reduced (MTBF #s go down). In today's world, my line of thinking is not viewed as "normal" in this regard - the analog battery charger I referenced is over 30 years old - consumers are expected to pitch their electronic toys in 18 months - 3 years max - my lifespan comments may make sense to some TBN'ers, but not the general public.

D.

ok.. step 2 after mounting it.. pot it. grab a 4$ electrical safe silycone caulk tube and pump the housing full. Done that myself too. built a weather tight radio enclosure for a non closed cab tractor that will see 'side' rain.. potted with silly-cone.. regualr car radio.. bagged it in plastic wrap to prevent intrustion into it's case.. then potted the fixture as I had some other bits of ho-made hardware in there.. next!

I agree.. this level of owner/usership may not be for the general public.. however.. it can be mitigated with easy steps.

 

[3930dave]

:thumbsup: Silicone - great problem solver for making outdoor stuff out of indoor stuff - Permatex Ultra Black is my present favourite ! Gotta keep heat (as in transfer) in mind, it can become an issue sealing things up tight.

Haven't tried the Schumacher digi units - they seem pricier than average, so you may well be getting (better) value/performance with those. Thanks, I'll watch to see if I can find one on sale.

Replaced the float valve/seat/float hinge pin today on my old Briggs. Surprising amount of crud (varnish) in the bowl - I'll be switching to Stabil in full gas tanks on this gen, and any new one too - I'll see in a year or 3 if this approach (with runs every 8 wks or so) works better than just running the gen dry.

Funny, the float valve seat was installed at the factory upside down (small concentric groove on one face). It seemed to run OK like that years back, perhaps the fuel level in the bowl was off a tick.

Old gen works fine now - proved today that it won't properly support a dedicated load I want to run - if I snag the deal I want tomorrow, I'll post what I pick up here.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Done.

Briggs 7kw Elite, with 2100 series engine, bought today. $800 Canadian, new, TSC store.

7000 Watt Elite Series

It's non-obvious in the generator description, but the engine is cast iron sleeved and has ball bearings.

2100 Series | Other | Engines | Briggs & Stratton

If the EGD listing is correct, it is also brushless. EGD has a link to the pdf for the Owner's Manual, not easy to find on the Briggs site.

Briggs & Stratton 30470 Portable Generator - 30470 - 7000 Watt Electric Start Portable Generator

This is the first electric start gen I've had. Wife knows how to use a choke, nice to know she will be able to start it if I'm not home. No 12v output, as we've already covered, I'll get by :laughing:.

Best fit for my needs vs. dollars.

Rgds, D.

 

[Soundguy]

lets see it in action now!

 

[Clyde]

I don't have the answers but a few thoughts to toss in. 1) I know nothing about actual brush generator heads but don't the brushless require self produced 12v DC to excite the fields? If you use the 12 volts to charge a battery, it diminishes or does not allow 120 volt AC generation at the same time. That means the manufacturer is ripping you off in saying that for an extra sum of money, they are bringing two wires to a point for you to pickup the 12 volt DC. A simple schematics of the head would provide this also! 2) Most generators are standby only and it is a given that when you really need it, the carb is always gummed up. I always add 1/2 cup of "Sea Foam" to all my engines with the gasoline and since doing that, I can rely on quick and easy starts everytime. 3) I have no proof nor substantiation for my preference in engines but I prefer a cast iron liner. If all of the latest cylinder preps for aluminum blocks were all they were cracked up to be, why does Honda still offer cast iron sleeves in their commercial grade engines and roller bearings on the crank bearings? Naturally, upfront, they are more costly but I'd rather take my chances with a good and reliable, albeit expensive engine than running out to get a replacement in an outage. 4)Generac is one of the U.S. generator manufacturers building their air cooled engines right in the states. Northern Tool ships them from the Generac plant with free shipping. If you wanted standby power for the entire house - the auto transfer switch is included in the price. A 200 amp switch alone sells for up to $1,500.00 alone.

Just my thoughts folks with a dash of things I know for a fact. Clyde