Portable Generators

[buickanddeere]

So what is wrong with putting a proper transfer device and do it right?

David Kb7uns

Some people just like to prove that they are above the law or that they have an angle that nobody else has thought of or can control.

 

[MikePA]

What model Honda generator do you have? Up until reading this it never occurred to me that I could rig one for auto start. Any pictures?

Here's the text of the post I made on the APC forum. I've also attached the pdf I reference. I can post pictures, but theres not much to see.

The 'trick' is using the Honda Remote cable, the APC Auto transfer switch and the Jameco connector. Honda and APC were going to market this combination, which is why the APC transfer switch supports this, until the lawyers decided auto start and a portable generator was too much liability. The generator sits outside, on an open porch. Honda EM series and the EU6500i generator support remote start, Click Here.

The electrician was here today and wired everything up, including the autostart. Everything works great! In addition to the inlet box, he also installed a GFCI next to it where I plug in the Battery Tender. My generator is a Honda EM5000SX.

For those that find this thread and could use a complete parts list;

1. 4-conductor remote cable - Honda Part Number 32520-Z22-850AH
2. 5.08 Euro plug, 6 connector - Jameco Part Number 1969446
3. Automatic Transfer Switch - APC Part Number UTS10BI
4. 120/240V 30A Inlet box - Honda Part Number 32316-189-PB30
5. 125/250V 30A 10 gauge, 4 wire 10 ft power cord - Honda Part Number 06582-103-010AH

The electrician replaced the connector on the end of the 4-conductor remote cable that plugs into the ATS with the Jameco connector, wired it according to the pdf mentioned earlier in this thread and it plugged right into the circuit board in the ATS.

 

[IXLR8]

Mike,
Thank you for this. I just picked up a honda eu7000is and I am having my old FPE panel replaced and a generator hookup installed. I was going to go with an interlock setup on the panel, but this would be better for the wife to deal with when I am out of town.

 

[jenrow33]

I have a 15,000 watt pto powered generator and feed my house panel through a manual transfer switch. Pretty happy with it, but those standby outfits are awful nice...!

Knowing that most times when power is out you will likely need your tractor for other chores is correct. My thought is that by running the generator for a few hours, it is acceptable to go for a few hours or whatever is necessary for the other chores and then back to the generator. In michigan, usually the worse case will be plowing snow during an outage which for me is only an hour or so.

Other advantages to the PTO generator:
Cost per watt
Less engines to maintain
Portability (compared to standby)
If you use and maintain your tractor year round you don't have to worry about the generator starting

 

[MikePA]

Mike,
Thank you for this. I just picked up a honda eu7000is and I am having my old FPE panel replaced and a generator hookup installed. I was going to go with an interlock setup on the panel, but this would be better for the wife to deal with when I am out of town.

Jim - The Honda Generator site indicates a remote start will be 'available this winter' for the EU7000is, but the Owners Manual shows it and the cable and remote start box looks the same as the one for my generator and the female connector on the generator look the same. I hope everything I listed works for you. Autostart provides great peace of mind.

The APC ATS allows fairly detailed specifications for each circuit to be powered by the generator, e.g., which circuits should be powered off if the generator begins to overload, which circuits have a minimum run time, max run time, etc. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it only supports one 240v circuit and eight 120v circuits, which was enough for us. The eight 120v circuits can be 15 or 20 amp based on the fuse on the circuit within the ATS. It's important to match the ATS circuit fuse (15 or 20 amps) with the circuit it powers in the breaker box. It also has a connector for a battery UPS to plug in that powers low draw circuits until the generator kicks in. Here's a link to the APC site Click Here.

Before the electrician arrived, I had inventoried the entire breaker box, knew which ones I wanted powered by the generator, so he was finished in less than 4 hours. When he arrived, I had all the parts laid out, a diagram of the breaker box, with the circuits highlighted, etc. Before he left, he indicated most home owners do not do this and have not thought about what circuits they want powered by the generator. So, a few hours can be spent doing that, more if you are not sure which breaker controls the lights in the interior bathroom, for example. Of course, you're paying the electrician for all this. If I can be of further assistance, please let me know.

EDIT 1: To repeat, autostart is not officially supported by APC. I've seen people ask questions on the APC support forum and the APC people politely decline to help but other members do. I am sure there are other solutions, but this one met my needs.

EDIT 2: The armored cable from the ATS to the breaker box contains all the wires that tie to the circuits the generator powers. The orange cable goes outside to the Honda outlet. The gray cable coming out the top is the autostart cable. The paper directly below the display panel lists the circuits in the breaker box powered by the generator and the ATS settings for each. The paper below that is the shipping sheet from APC. The UPS that powers low draw circuits until the generator starts (also configurable) can be seen on the workbench to the left. The Battery Tender is their weatherproof model, so sitting on an open porch (roof but open on 3 sides) is not a problem. I also have combination smoke and CO detectors in the house. The generator has a 3 sided surround using shutters so it's somewhat camouflaged. They're far enough away from the exhaust so there's no danger. The generator is secured by an armored cable locked to a security anchor driven into the ground. I debated where to locate the generator, and this was the best, albeit not perfect, for our home.

 

[Humblebub]

I too am interested. My new honda should be here next week and I will be investigating auto start. We just finished 100 KW install at work. It auto starts at 1 second after power drop and auto transfer switch flips over 10 seconds later. We are running 2, 4 floor Office buildings with 6 servers.

 

[tcreeley]

What do you mean by backfeed breakers?
If you are referring to a proper generator transfer switch that breaks before makes which provides inherently safe, foolproof isolation? You maybe thinking of this unit ? It's actually an excellent product for some customers. GenerLink.com - About GenerLink - The easy way to connect a home generator

--Looks like a nice product. $550 - 650. Pricey. Transfer switches at the time were also pricey. If utility companies want them, they should install them. Rate payers already cover all of there money making schemes- they should have to pick this one up if they want it.

 

[buickanddeere]

--Looks like a nice product. $550 - 650. Pricey. Transfer switches at the time were also pricey. If utility companies want them, they should install them. Rate payers already cover all of there money making schemes- they should have to pick this one up if they want it.

Give you head a shake, where are you coming from ? By you line of reasoning insurance companies should install fire and intrusion detection and alarm systems too. It comes down to money, the customer who complains about the bill will be complaining louder about paying for a transfer switch or an alarm system "that they will never use". It's up to you to safely look after yourself without endangering others, yourself and property. There is no excuse for a jackleg electrician generator connection. You don't know what you don't know.

 

[buickanddeere]

.....

 

[kevinwak]

Jim - The Honda Generator site indicates a remote start will be 'available this winter' for the EU7000is, but the Owners Manual shows it and the cable and remote start box looks the same as the one for my generator and the female connector on the generator look the same. I hope everything I listed works for you. Autostart provides great peace of mind. The APC ATS allows fairly detailed specifications for each circuit to be powered by the generator, e.g., which circuits should be powered off if the generator begins to overload, which circuits have a minimum run time, max run time, etc. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it only supports one 240v circuit and eight 120v circuits, which was enough for us. The eight 120v circuits can be 15 or 20 amp based on the fuse on the circuit within the ATS. It's important to match the ATS circuit fuse (15 or 20 amps) with the circuit it powers in the breaker box. It also has a connector for a battery UPS to plug in that powers low draw circuits until the generator kicks in. Here's a link to the APC site Click Here. Before the electrician arrived, I had inventoried the entire breaker box, knew which ones I wanted powered by the generator, so he was finished in less than 4 hours. When he arrived, I had all the parts laid out, a diagram of the breaker box, with the circuits highlighted, etc. Before he left, he indicated most home owners do not do this and have not thought about what circuits they want powered by the generator. So, a few hours can be spent doing that, more if you are not sure which breaker controls the lights in the interior bathroom, for example. Of course, you're paying the electrician for all this. If I can be of further assistance, please let me know. EDIT 1: To repeat, autostart is not officially supported by APC. I've seen people ask questions on the APC support forum and the APC people politely decline to help but other members do. I am sure there are other solutions, but this one met my needs. EDIT 2: The armored cable from the ATS to the breaker box contains all the wires that tie to the circuits the generator powers. The orange cable goes outside to the Honda outlet. The gray cable coming out the top is the autostart cable. The paper directly below the display panel lists the circuits in the breaker box powered by the generator and the ATS settings for each. The paper below that is the shipping sheet from APC. The UPS that powers low draw circuits until the generator starts (also configurable) can be seen on the workbench to the left. The Battery Tender is their weatherproof model, so sitting on an open porch (roof but open on 3 sides) is not a problem. I also have combination smoke and CO detectors in the house. The generator has a 3 sided surround using shutters so it's somewhat camouflaged. They're far enough away from the exhaust so there's no danger. The generator is secured by an armored cable locked to a security anchor driven into the ground. I debated where to locate the generator, and this was the best, albeit not perfect, for our home.

Thanks, that was very helpful. I have been deciding wether to spend the extra $200 for electric start when I buy an Honda generator, and I think you have me convinced. Winter power outages are rare here, but if I am at work when one happens I have to deal with freeze protecting our plant, and wouldn't even have the time to phone my wife and talk her through connecting a generator. With that said I want something very simple for her, so if it does happen I don't have to worry. A lot of the generator transfer switches available arent CSA for use in Canada, so I am not sure if an install with auto start is available to me for a Honda.

 

[MikePA]

Even if auto start on a portable generator is not allowed in Canada, electric start, in combination with the remote starter, which can be mounted inside, and the transfer switch, would mean hit the start button, let the generator get up to speed and then flip the transfer switch. Much easier than going outside and using a pull starter.

 

[firemanmike69]

Maybe I missed but but what is the difference between a transfer switch and throwing the main breaker? Is it just that the interlock transfer switch cannot be used until the main is switched off or does it somehow disconnect from grid power?

 

[MikePA]

All transfer switches disconnect your breaker panel from the power grid to prevent generator power from going out to the grid. They allow power from the grid or the generator, but not both at the same time. They can be manual or automatic.

Throwing the main breaker accomplishes the same thing, but you have to remember to do this if you decide to use an electrical outlet as an electrical inlet. If you forget, your generator power goes out to the grid and puts lineman at risk as they work to restore your power. It's one thing to put yourself at risk, however I've always believed it was not moral to deliberately put others at risk if I'd forget to switch my main breaker off.

 

[buickanddeere]

Maybe I missed but but what is the difference between a transfer switch and throwing the main breaker? Is it just that the interlock transfer switch cannot be used until the main is switched off or does it somehow disconnect from grid power?

Lord grant me patience and give it to me now. How can this be so discussed and so well known and yet people just don't get how essential a positive interlock between the main breaker and generator breaker is. By law, the laws of physics and plain old common sense. The breakers have to be break before make.

 

[David_Kb7uns]

--Looks like a nice product. $550 - 650. Pricey. Transfer switches at the time were also pricey. If utility companies want them, they should install them. Rate payers already cover all of there money making schemes- they should have to pick this one up if they want it.

Well with this thinking if the government wants you to stop at a stop sign they need to install a remote braking system in your car to make you stop and not hit anybody else.

David Kb7uns

 

[buickanddeere]

Well with this thinking if the government wants you to stop at a stop sign they need to install a remote braking system in your car to make you stop and not hit anybody else.

David Kb7uns

It's because of fools that don't stop. This will justify some power hungry burocrates into such a scheme.

 

[buickanddeere]

All transfer switches disconnect your breaker panel from the power grid to prevent generator power from going out to the grid. They allow power from the grid or the generator, but not both at the same time. They can be manual or automatic.

Throwing the main breaker accomplishes the same thing, but you have to remember to do this if you decide to use an electrical outlet as an electrical inlet. If you forget, your generator power goes out to the grid and puts lineman at risk as they work to restore your power. It's one thing to put yourself at risk, however I've always believed it was not moral to deliberately put others at risk if I'd forget to switch my main breaker off.

--Looks like a nice product. $550 - 650. Pricey. Transfer switches at the time were also pricey. If utility companies want them, they should install them. Rate payers already cover all of there money making schemes- they should have to pick this one up if they want it.

What is this tin foil hat conspiracy scheme about money making utilities ?

 

[Garandman]

Manual lock-out switches are not particularly expensive and prevent the chance of backfeeding the grid (and harming a lineman). That's what we use in Boston as it is a manual set up.

 

[buickanddeere]

Even if auto start on a portable generator is not allowed in Canada, electric start, in combination with the remote starter, which can be mounted inside, and the transfer switch, would mean hit the start button, let the generator get up to speed and then flip the transfer switch. Much easier than going outside and using a pull starter.

I never heard tell of an auto start or remote start generator being 100% banned in Canada. There are some circumstances in some applications where auto-start is hazardous and is thus illegal .

 

[firemanmike69]

All transfer switches disconnect your breaker panel from the power grid to prevent generator power from going out to the grid. They allow power from the grid or the generator, but not both at the same time. They can be manual or automatic. Throwing the main breaker accomplishes the same thing, but you have to remember to do this if you decide to use an electrical outlet as an electrical inlet. If you forget, your generator power goes out to the grid and puts lineman at risk as they work to restore your power. It's one thing to put yourself at risk, however I've always believed it was not moral to deliberately put others at risk if I'd forget to switch my main breaker off.

Thanks mike for a useful answer, unlike other on here who like to make a big deal about nothing. I do want to do things right and will most likely end up with a manual transfer switch or I guess I could just pull the meter