Posse Comitatus Act

[Spencer]

Off Topic, Sorry.

Wingnut, I was out riding my dual sport motorcycle yesterday and was thinking about your fathers day gift. Then it dawned on me, your username that is. Your a nut for Gold Wings and not just a normal wingnut right?

 

[dmccarty]

Charlie,

I agree and disagree. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

My origional post was aimed at the idea that Ashcroft is
worse than Reno. Reno accepted responsibility for Waco.
Waco was so messed up its beyond discription. She should be
in prison. Not running for office. The WSJ has documented a
few of her cases when she as a prosecuter in Florida. Tain't
a nice picture.

Regarding US military operations in the US in a law enforcement capacity, that scares the heck out of me. But
I also have not seen one bit of info on the current proposals.

So there I think we aggree. But on the other hand... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

The Federal Government should be thinking of what ifs.

What if a nuke is set off in a city in the US? Is there really
a locality or state that can handle that event? No.

What if a biological agent is spread in a city in the US? The
ugly reality is that the city is going to have to be isolated.
Local and state law enfocement are not going to be able to
accomplish that job. I'm not sure the Feds can do it either
but they are the only ones that have a chance....

In these two cases only the Feds have the resources to
isolate the effected areas, bring in mobile hospitals, setup
up tent cities, provide food and water.

Now, Biden said on the Boob Tube Sunday that the US Military
does not have the legal authority to shoot a terrorist who
was about to set off a nuke. I find that very hard to believe.
But lets say it is true. Then certainly the military should have
the legal framework to prevent a WMD attack. WMD being
a nuke, chemical or biological attack.

The reality is in any WMD attack or threat only the Feds can
really handle the situation.

I have not seen, with the exceptions of the messes at the
airports, anything that allows a police officer any great
lattitude in questioning suspects or making arrests. Maybe
it is buried in the bills that are being thrown around Congress
but I ain't seen anything yet.

Later,
Dan

 

[Wingnut]

yup!
first GoldWing got to be 20 years old and I switched to the "pumpkin" ... what a ride!

 

[Wingnut]

<font color=blue>and not just a normal wingnut right? </font color=blue>

not normal is completely correct!

 

[dmccarty]

Our Man From the Ozarks beat me to much of my response.

But I'll add some things. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

What was first reported, right or wrong was that a certain
tear gas was being used. This was on the nightly news so
take it with a block of salt. There are two kinds of tear gas,
CS and CN. One is for outdoor use and one for indoor use.
The difference? The outdoor gas is flammable. Thus don't use
it indoors. The news stated that a given type of gas was
used. I can't remember which was indoor/outdoor so I looked
it up. The outdoor gas was being used inside the house.

Yes, SWAT teams are not perfect. But when the Federal
government assaults a building full of innocent people for the
sole purpose of making the news there is something wrong.
Furthermore when the people being attacked believe that
the end of the world will happen any day and that the Federal
government is part of Satan evil menions it does not take a
rocket scientist to figure out what is gong to happen if the
situation is not diffused. Running a tank into a buildings full
of people and pumping in gas is not how to deal with innocent
people. Nor is it the way to handle people who are waiting
for the world to end. Frankly, if a tank was running into my
house and pumping it full of gas I would think my world was
about to end as well.

Yep, real smart was Ms. Reno. A real thinker she is.

I never said the FBI or ATF intended to kill innocent people.
But by there actions they managed to do so. In NC there
would be at least a charge of manslaughter on similar cases.

Regarding Ashcrofts ideology I'm not sure of his beliefs. I
just know the press, aka the Democrats, go after him all the
time. I view the attacks on Ashcroft as the same that
have happened and continue to happen on various judges
and political appointees. Borking comes to mind.

I'm sure there are ideas being tossed around Congress and
office buildings in Washington that I don't like. They have
been doing that for years and will continue to do so. But
so far I really don't see an erosion of rights. Some of the
ideas that have popped up have been quickly shot down...

But don't get me started on the people murdered by Federal
officers during Clinton's time in office. So far Ashcroft has
done a far better job than Reno. He ain't killed people.

Later,
Dan

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

Dan: I don't think we're disagreeing at all. The military, including National Guard, either called up by state governor or federalized, can and will be available for disaster relief and management, and protection of people and property. What is prohibited and should remain so is use of the military in law enforcement, detection, arrest, etc.

I have seen an affidavit used to get a no knock search warrant in "suspected" drug activity, which recited that an unidentified informant suggested that the property would be defended with automatic weapons. The whole thing was nonsense, but resulted in County Police and DEA types running all over each other, but fortunately not doing each other any harm while they determined that they were the only dangerous people there. It is not much of a stretch to see that same affidavit as support for an attack by a C-130 gunship to soften the target and make sure no law enforcers get hurt.

Certainly whatever her motivations and culpability in retrospect, Reno no doubt thought she was doing "the right thing" at Waco. What she authorized was bad beyond belief. As Cowboy Doc noted in slightly different terms, we may have more to fear from those who think they are doing the right thing than those who are genuinely out to hurt us.

 

[Ozarker]

<font color=blue>"What if a nuke is set off in a city in the US? Is there really a locality or state that can handle that event? No."

"What if a biological agent is spread in a city in the US? The
ugly reality is that the city is going to have to be isolated.
Local and state law enforcement are not going to be able to accomplish that job. I'm not sure the Feds can do it either but they are the only ones that have a chance...."

"In these two cases only the Feds have the resources to isolate the effected areas, bring in mobile hospitals, setup up tent cities, provide food and water."</font color=blue>

No need to mess with Posse Comitatus for that. It is already covered in a number of Executive Orders. FEMA would take over under Executive Order 13132, Federalism, Constitutional protections would be suspended in the disaster area and the military would exercise any power that FEMA gave it.

<font color=blue>"Now, Biden said on the Boob Tube Sunday that the US Military does not have the legal authority to shoot a terrorist who was about to set off a nuke.."</font color=blue>

Biden is an idiot. That aside, any person has the legal authority to use whatever force is necessary, including deadly force, to stop an act that is likely to cause death or grievous bodily harm to his/herself or others. Do not forget your status as a member of the US Militia. We have a Republican form of government and all power flows from the people to the government. Whatever power the government has, the people has. If you look in your states codes you will find your own power of arrest.

 

[Ozarker]

They used CS gas but the gas in the canisters on the tanks had methylene chloride mixed in to make is sprayable. When burned, methylene chloride produces hydrogen cyanide.

To make sure it burned, they fired Ferret rounds of CS into the wooden building. Ferret rounds are pyrotechnic and release their CS by burning it to produce a cloud of CS charged smoke. Pyrotechnics are for outside use only and will start a fire almost every time they are fired into a wooden structure.

The idea that they started the fire themselves is so absurd that any thinking individual would reject that out of hand. Whatever else anyone may think or them, they were a survivalist group that had stockpiled food, water, fuel, arms and ammunition for the purpose of surviving "dooms day" and going on to create a new society. People like that do not commit suicide. They fight to the end.

The only evidence that they started the fire from the inside was one person who claimed that he overheard them say "spread the fire", or words to that effect. I believe that person was not telling the truth. No one else heard anything like that and there were listening stations set up all over the place.

 

[Chuck52]

<font color=red>They used CS gas but the gas in the canisters on the tanks had methylene chloride mixed
in to make is sprayable. When burned, methylene chloride produces hydrogen cyanide. </font color=red>

Methylene chloride is also called dichloromethane. It is a colorless liquid. It's vapor is not flammable, and when mixed with air it is not explosive. It does not generate HCN, hydrogen cyanide, when burned, if for no other reason, because it has no nitrogen. This information probably doesn't do anything to shake your absolute faith in whatever you may have read which has convinced you that the government "poured gas into the compound" and deliberately burned those innocents to death. There are many internet sites which cater to the myths about Waco. Some are probably even better than the one you got this from.

Chuck

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

<font color=red>It does not generate HCN, hydrogen cyanide,</font color=red>
Chuck: Picky, picky.
Dichloromethane at high temperature can generate a bit of HCL, which isn't pleasant, as well as phosgene, which is lethal. My vague recollection of the latter is that it is also generated by mixing water and carbon tetrachloride at high temperature, which someone finally noticed as an argument against carbon tet fire extinguishers.
Despite the myths and misinformation surrounding Waco, it was a disaster that contains lessons for the future. One of those lessons is that we should not encourage the government, and provide them with military forces, to eliminate any group of people that they're a little worried about.