brewerbob
Bronze Member
Well said, Dan.
Bob
Bob
Posse Comitatus Act
- Thread starter RoyJackson
- Start date
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Chuck52
Veteran Member
Charlie,
I am willing to believe that whoever put out that particular bit of mis-information about HCN and methylenechloride was simply ignorant of the chemistry involved, but most everyone knows that HCN is a deadly poison, so I don't think it is picky to remove that piece of mis-information from the mix. It also makes you wonder what else is out there. Have you visited some of those sites? I particularly liked the one that linked Waco with some sort of devil worship/black magic thing. And they weren't talking about the Branch Davidian's beliefs...something to do with a geographical pattern that looked like goats horns linking the school killings, Ruby Ridge and Waco. That was one of more sensible ones.
Chuck
I am willing to believe that whoever put out that particular bit of mis-information about HCN and methylenechloride was simply ignorant of the chemistry involved, but most everyone knows that HCN is a deadly poison, so I don't think it is picky to remove that piece of mis-information from the mix. It also makes you wonder what else is out there. Have you visited some of those sites? I particularly liked the one that linked Waco with some sort of devil worship/black magic thing. And they weren't talking about the Branch Davidian's beliefs...something to do with a geographical pattern that looked like goats horns linking the school killings, Ruby Ridge and Waco. That was one of more sensible ones.
Chuck
Charlie_Iliff
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Chuck:
I should have put a /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif after the "Picky, Picky". When I saw your post, I was about to correct the HCN claim myself.
Not long ago, there were a whole batch of experts looking at Waco evidence, trying to determine who shot when. If it were as simple as ferret rounds touching off the wood and kerosene inside, I doubt there'd be much debate. There has been a remarkable growth of misinformation about the Branch Davidians, as well as about the sequence of events that led to their extirmination. I don't care what their beliefs were, and don't care whether Janet Reno was misinformed, stupid, venal, or merely mistaken, or, for that matter whether the mistake(s) were made on site and beyond her control. My problem is with the government going after a group of people that they apparently feared for reasons that still haven't come to light, with lethal force, in order to arrest someone - if that's what they were trying to do.
Since this thread started out about posse comitatus, I once again vote against changing it so enthusiastic homeland security types can call in an air strike on suspicion that someone is hoarding food and water against the coming apocalypse.
I should have put a /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif after the "Picky, Picky". When I saw your post, I was about to correct the HCN claim myself.
Not long ago, there were a whole batch of experts looking at Waco evidence, trying to determine who shot when. If it were as simple as ferret rounds touching off the wood and kerosene inside, I doubt there'd be much debate. There has been a remarkable growth of misinformation about the Branch Davidians, as well as about the sequence of events that led to their extirmination. I don't care what their beliefs were, and don't care whether Janet Reno was misinformed, stupid, venal, or merely mistaken, or, for that matter whether the mistake(s) were made on site and beyond her control. My problem is with the government going after a group of people that they apparently feared for reasons that still haven't come to light, with lethal force, in order to arrest someone - if that's what they were trying to do.
Since this thread started out about posse comitatus, I once again vote against changing it so enthusiastic homeland security types can call in an air strike on suspicion that someone is hoarding food and water against the coming apocalypse.
Dirt isn't flammable either............until you get a big cloud of dust confined and add a spark.
I think I'll ignore your attempt to insult me and just stick with OSHA's rating of flamibility for Methylene Chloride (@ 25 oC) 14 % - 22 % solvent in air.
I don't know a lot about the web sites you frequent but I do have a copy of the 750 page Congressional investigation (somewhere if I can find it) on Waco and would be glad to clear up any misinformation you may have about it.
The FBI claimed that it had never fired any pyrotechnic devices into the building. Investigation by the Texas Rangers showed that to be a lie and in fact many M651 CS canisters were fired into the building in addition to the gas that was pumped in using the CEV's. Pumping CS into an enclosed area and then firing pyrotechnics in would have about the same effect as lighting up a cigarette while working inside a half empty grain elevator.
Whether you like or not, or care or not, or even have any feeling at all, CS is not a gas, it is a powder. When sprayed in concentrations indoors it can flash over. CS is not designed to be used indoors and is very dangerous when used that way.
CN (tear gas) is what is used indoors. The ONLY reason to use CS indoors is if you are too stupid to know better or your desire is to do maximuum damage to people. I have to believe that the most highly trained hostage rescue team in the world, the FBI HRT, is not too stupid to know better.
You are free to believe as you wish. Maybe you're right and they are too stupid to know better.
I think I'll ignore your attempt to insult me and just stick with OSHA's rating of flamibility for Methylene Chloride (@ 25 oC) 14 % - 22 % solvent in air.
I don't know a lot about the web sites you frequent but I do have a copy of the 750 page Congressional investigation (somewhere if I can find it) on Waco and would be glad to clear up any misinformation you may have about it.
The FBI claimed that it had never fired any pyrotechnic devices into the building. Investigation by the Texas Rangers showed that to be a lie and in fact many M651 CS canisters were fired into the building in addition to the gas that was pumped in using the CEV's. Pumping CS into an enclosed area and then firing pyrotechnics in would have about the same effect as lighting up a cigarette while working inside a half empty grain elevator.
Whether you like or not, or care or not, or even have any feeling at all, CS is not a gas, it is a powder. When sprayed in concentrations indoors it can flash over. CS is not designed to be used indoors and is very dangerous when used that way.
CN (tear gas) is what is used indoors. The ONLY reason to use CS indoors is if you are too stupid to know better or your desire is to do maximuum damage to people. I have to believe that the most highly trained hostage rescue team in the world, the FBI HRT, is not too stupid to know better.
You are free to believe as you wish. Maybe you're right and they are too stupid to know better.
OP
RoyJackson
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""Now, Biden said on the Boob Tube Sunday that the US Military does not have the legal authority to shoot a terrorist who was about to set off a nuke.."
Biden is an idiot. That aside, any person has the legal authority to use whatever force is necessary, including deadly force, to stop an act that is likely to cause death or grievous bodily harm to his/herself or others. Do not forget your status as a member of the US Militia. We have a Republican form of government and all power flows from the people to the government. Whatever power the government has, the people has. If you look in your states codes you will find your own power of arrest. "
The laws on concealed carry in Pennsylvania concur with this. Use of deadly force does not have to be in your own self defense...can be to prevent a crime in which you believe another will suffer harm. Now, for you CCW holders, that doesn't mean you want to stop a stick up...let the hooligans have the money.
BTW, we can discuss this ad infinitium..but if you really want to make your voice known, write (not e-mail) or call your federal reps/senators. I called both Spector and Santorum on this one...
Now as far as Biden being an idiot...well, true, but who would convict anyone for stopping a terrorist act? That doesn't mean that some nitwit prosecutor would try though.
Biden is an idiot. That aside, any person has the legal authority to use whatever force is necessary, including deadly force, to stop an act that is likely to cause death or grievous bodily harm to his/herself or others. Do not forget your status as a member of the US Militia. We have a Republican form of government and all power flows from the people to the government. Whatever power the government has, the people has. If you look in your states codes you will find your own power of arrest. "
The laws on concealed carry in Pennsylvania concur with this. Use of deadly force does not have to be in your own self defense...can be to prevent a crime in which you believe another will suffer harm. Now, for you CCW holders, that doesn't mean you want to stop a stick up...let the hooligans have the money.
BTW, we can discuss this ad infinitium..but if you really want to make your voice known, write (not e-mail) or call your federal reps/senators. I called both Spector and Santorum on this one...
Now as far as Biden being an idiot...well, true, but who would convict anyone for stopping a terrorist act? That doesn't mean that some nitwit prosecutor would try though.
Chuck52
Veteran Member
Charlie,
It's real hard to see a tongue in your cheek over these little wires.
Ozarker,
I wasn't trying to insult you. I assume you read that piece of mis-information on the web somewhere, and most people don't know that you can put fires out with methylene chloride. I don't know if whoever put that out in the first instance was ignorant of the chemistry or deliberately trying to mislead his/her readers. The fact that such stuff is out there just indicates there might well be more. Did someone use the wrong kind of gas or gas-generating material deliberately or out of ignorance of the possibility that it might start a fire? How many gas rounds were fired? Is that indeed what started the fire(s)? Is the same person who thinks HCN ( a very flamable gas which would have burned off in the fire) can be generated by burning a liquid that doesn't burn worth a hoot and wouldn't make HCN if you did manage to "burn" it the same person who compiled the other data?
Jack Danforth always seemed to me a fairly intelligent Republican. I wonder how he feels about the details that have come out since his investigation.
Chuck
It's real hard to see a tongue in your cheek over these little wires.
Ozarker,
I wasn't trying to insult you. I assume you read that piece of mis-information on the web somewhere, and most people don't know that you can put fires out with methylene chloride. I don't know if whoever put that out in the first instance was ignorant of the chemistry or deliberately trying to mislead his/her readers. The fact that such stuff is out there just indicates there might well be more. Did someone use the wrong kind of gas or gas-generating material deliberately or out of ignorance of the possibility that it might start a fire? How many gas rounds were fired? Is that indeed what started the fire(s)? Is the same person who thinks HCN ( a very flamable gas which would have burned off in the fire) can be generated by burning a liquid that doesn't burn worth a hoot and wouldn't make HCN if you did manage to "burn" it the same person who compiled the other data?
Jack Danforth always seemed to me a fairly intelligent Republican. I wonder how he feels about the details that have come out since his investigation.
Chuck
Forget the new evidence. I'd be happy if he had used the evidence in the custody of the Texas Rangers since shortly after the siege ended.
http://www.waco93.com/dallasmorningnews.htm
http://www.waco93.com/dallasmorningnews.htm
Anonymous Poster
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WACO- still seems a bit odd the Feds had to go to all that trouble when the local Sheriff or Ranger could have arrested Koresh 5 days a week as he jogged along the road. You almost have to wonder why the Feds didn't just fence the place and call it a federal prison, sure would have been cheaper, must be Gore wasn't cost cutting on that one.
Ruby ridge - well Reno sure moved heaven and earth to squash the state indictment for Lon Horiuchi, her expert marksman.
OK City- If you believe the Feds on that one, report directly to Area 51, and sign in.
Vince Foster- sure he shot himself in the park.
Odd how nobody seems to remember that just short of 9 years back, every applicant for Special Forces had to check a box on the NEW application that they were willing to follow an order to drop the hammer on a US Civilian if ordered to.
It's time to admit the Best and the Brightest aren't working in the government in Washington DC. The only thing the government is best at is covering up.
Ruby ridge - well Reno sure moved heaven and earth to squash the state indictment for Lon Horiuchi, her expert marksman.
OK City- If you believe the Feds on that one, report directly to Area 51, and sign in.
Vince Foster- sure he shot himself in the park.
Odd how nobody seems to remember that just short of 9 years back, every applicant for Special Forces had to check a box on the NEW application that they were willing to follow an order to drop the hammer on a US Civilian if ordered to.
It's time to admit the Best and the Brightest aren't working in the government in Washington DC. The only thing the government is best at is covering up.
dmccarty
Super Star Member
Ozarker,
"Biden is an idiot." Can't and won't argue that point! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
"If you look in your states codes you will find your own power of arrest. "
Well it might be a slight quibble to some and I hate to prove
Goober and Barney wrong, but in NC a citizen does NOT have
the power of arrest. Only law enforcement officers have that
power. Citizens can DETAIN and supposedly use whatever
reasonable force was required to hold the person until a LEO
showed up. I'm not sure I would want to be the test case
on reasonableness... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
There are already cases of people deliberately spreading TB
and HIV. Some of these people have been detained and
should be but the legal process to do so is long and other
people, innocents, are at risk of infection. One of these
Typhoid Marys is bad enough. What will happen if thousands
are infected? There currently is not a mechanism to handle thousands of people who would be infected in the case of a
biological attack. There has to be some legal framework for
this to exist. My understanding is that there is no current
framework. Would such a plan scare the heck out of me?
You bet. Do I think we need such a plan? You bet. Is there
a danger that this law could be abused? You bet.
The ugly reality is that the in the case of a wide spread
biological attack people are going to be confined either in
camps, scary word ain't it, or in the geographical area of
the attack. That is a mass arrest or detention. Only the
military has the resources to do this. I would be shocked
if the legal frame work for this exists today.
It is a very scary and dangerous idea but I don't think there
is much choice. The alternatives are worse.
One easy way out is to put a time limit on the law of four
years or so. But it is still scary. But a widespread smallpos
epidemic is more frightening. I just saw a documentary on
some of the biological factories in the exSoviet Union.
Security is all but non existent. They had Smallbox, plague,
and a bunch of other wonderful stuff, stored in used veggie
cans in a fridge that looked like it was from the 50s. The
fridge was behind two doors. But it was in a room with a
glass window. Real secure. If the Russions and the Republics
are handling their nuke resources the same we have some
major problems....
There really aren't any good answers. They are all bad.
BTW, Billy the Kid who was a McCarty was on the loosing
side in the Lincoln County wars. The conflict over who would
control the county supprisingly enough was covered somewhat
in some of John Wayne movies. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif But the history really
is out of a Western. The govenor of the territory was the man
who wrote Ben Hur. He lied to Billy and set him up. The US
Army came into the town, sided with one faction, and shot
up the house that Billy and his side where hold up. Hard to
believe but true.
Later...
Dan
"Biden is an idiot." Can't and won't argue that point! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
"If you look in your states codes you will find your own power of arrest. "
Well it might be a slight quibble to some and I hate to prove
Goober and Barney wrong, but in NC a citizen does NOT have
the power of arrest. Only law enforcement officers have that
power. Citizens can DETAIN and supposedly use whatever
reasonable force was required to hold the person until a LEO
showed up. I'm not sure I would want to be the test case
on reasonableness... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
There are already cases of people deliberately spreading TB
and HIV. Some of these people have been detained and
should be but the legal process to do so is long and other
people, innocents, are at risk of infection. One of these
Typhoid Marys is bad enough. What will happen if thousands
are infected? There currently is not a mechanism to handle thousands of people who would be infected in the case of a
biological attack. There has to be some legal framework for
this to exist. My understanding is that there is no current
framework. Would such a plan scare the heck out of me?
You bet. Do I think we need such a plan? You bet. Is there
a danger that this law could be abused? You bet.
The ugly reality is that the in the case of a wide spread
biological attack people are going to be confined either in
camps, scary word ain't it, or in the geographical area of
the attack. That is a mass arrest or detention. Only the
military has the resources to do this. I would be shocked
if the legal frame work for this exists today.
It is a very scary and dangerous idea but I don't think there
is much choice. The alternatives are worse.
One easy way out is to put a time limit on the law of four
years or so. But it is still scary. But a widespread smallpos
epidemic is more frightening. I just saw a documentary on
some of the biological factories in the exSoviet Union.
Security is all but non existent. They had Smallbox, plague,
and a bunch of other wonderful stuff, stored in used veggie
cans in a fridge that looked like it was from the 50s. The
fridge was behind two doors. But it was in a room with a
glass window. Real secure. If the Russions and the Republics
are handling their nuke resources the same we have some
major problems....
There really aren't any good answers. They are all bad.
BTW, Billy the Kid who was a McCarty was on the loosing
side in the Lincoln County wars. The conflict over who would
control the county supprisingly enough was covered somewhat
in some of John Wayne movies. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif But the history really
is out of a Western. The govenor of the territory was the man
who wrote Ben Hur. He lied to Billy and set him up. The US
Army came into the town, sided with one faction, and shot
up the house that Billy and his side where hold up. Hard to
believe but true.
Later...
Dan
