Possible DEF shortages

[Hay Dude]

The PCM/ECU going into limp mode is not an engine failure. That's a subsystem causing a fault and a subsequent derating of power. The engine has not failed.

For this discussion, I called “fail“ and “limp mode” the same thing.
I call a ruined engine or transmission a “blown“ engine, not a “failed” engine.

Doesnt change the intent to say that urinating in a DEF tank would cause the engine to fail, derate, limp, etc.

If you’ve ever towed anything substantial and the engine went into limp or failsafe mode, its scary. Ive lost DPF sensors while towing and I had seconds to get off the road. It is a very unpleasant experience and could cause an accident.

Bottom line is, DONT pee in your DEF tank. It will cause the DEF system to fail and derate your engine and an unknown host of repairs.

 

[Hall00]

For this discussion, I called “fail“ and “limp mode” the same thing.
I call a ruined engine or transmission a “blown“ engine, not a “failed” engine.

Doesnt change the intent to say that urinating in a DEF tank would cause the engine to fail, derate, limp, etc.

If you’ve ever towed anything substantial and the engine went into limp or failsafe mode, its scary. Ive lost DPF sensors while towing and I had seconds to get off the road. It is a very unpleasant experience and could cause an accident.

Bottom line is, DONT pee in your DEF tank. It will cause the DEF system to fail and derate your engine and an unknown host of repairs.

It will not cause all of them to fail, just newer ones.

Older SCR treatment packages had simpler provisions for emissions compliance.

Level in DEF tank...check
Dosage pump functioning...check
That is all the older systems cared about. You could fill the tank with urine and it would function fine. Deionized water is a popular substitute.

A newer system measures the concentration of the fluid, therefore urine would ultimately cause a limp mode condition.

 

[3930dave]

Level in DEF tank...check

JUST that one sensor ^, is a good example of why I detest complex systems.

Let's pretend that there is only one manufacturer of DEF Level Sensors on the Planet.

Let's also pretend that same manufacturer built a whole pile of bad sensors, leading to short life-spans.

Then we'll pretend some global pandemic comes along, and same sensor manufacturer shuts down completely for an extended period of time.

Then we'll pretend, that as Thank You to Customers, when they re-start their production line (to replace the crap parts they previously built), the cost of that same sensor triples.

Leading to me "pretending" to joke about pulling modern equipment around with horses....

Can't understand why my "imagination" wandered that way.....

I can also imagine... This is a Good Way To "Sell" EV's....

Rgds, D.

 

[finn1]

So there’s no shortage, correct?

Both CHina and Russia are restricting fertilizer exports. The US is a net exporter of urea, though. Urea for DEF production is a tiny fraction of that used for agricultural purposes.

Worldwide prices have certainly gone up. Much US production comes from natural gas, which has risen this year.

The links you provide seem to be from Australia and Korea, both countries that would rely heavily on Chinese exports for their fertilizer supplies.

Our production base is primarily centered on the gulf coast. There were some shutdowns due to the hurricanes this year, but that’s sort of normal, or at least not unexpected over the years.

 

[finn1]

It will not cause all of them to fail, just newer ones.

Older SCR treatment packages had simpler provisions for emissions compliance.

Level in DEF tank...check
Dosage pump functioning...check
That is all the older systems cared about. You could fill the tank with urine and it would function fine. Deionized water is a popular substitute.

A newer system measures the concentration of the fluid, therefore urine would ultimately cause a limp mode condition.

Name an engine make, model, and application that will function when deionized water is substituted for DEF.

 

[IndyJay]

So you don't pump your own fuel at the filling station.

I noticed you said "filling" station instead of "service" station.
I wonder where all the service stations went?

 

[ovrszd]

I noticed you said "filling" station instead of "service" station.
I wonder where all the service stations went?

Friend of mine owned/operated a "quick stop" type station for 30 years. He repeatedly said he only sold gasoline to get the customers to stop in. He fought pay at the pump, was the last station in our County to install it. Wanted the customer to come inside the store. He also repeatedly said the market up on gasoline is so small that during rising prices it was common to sell a tanker load for less than it cost to buy a replacement load.

This is what killed "Service Stations". No profit margin to pay for the labor involved.

 

[jyoutz]

The US lacks the labor supply, regulatory framework and the basic desire for self sufficiency to regain its position of manufacturing superiority.
Complaining about empty shelves at Walmart is part of the proof. Every single one of us shares in the responsibility.
I have said for 30 years this country is on a path to ruin and that is more evident every day.

Most of this was caused by corporate bean counters. They were responding to the stock market’s focus on double digit returns. Back in the 70s before large scale offshoring of manufacturing began, stock holders typically were satisfied with single digit returns. Of course the general demise of corporate pensions increased the need for high market returns. Seems like all of these factors have contributed to the death spiral that we are experiencing now.

 

[IndyJay]

Friend of mine owned/operated a "quick stop" type station for 30 years. He repeatedly said he only sold gasoline to get the customers to stop in. He fought pay at the pump, was the last station in our County to install it. Wanted the customer to come inside the store. He also repeatedly said the market up on gasoline is so small that during rising prices it was common to sell a tanker load for less than it cost to buy a replacement load.

This is what killed "Service Stations". No profit margin to pay for the labor involved.

My Uncle opened a Pure Firebird service station coming out of WWII, eventually changing to Union 76. He had a couple of employees that pumped gas, checked oil and cleaned windshields, and a mechanic that did brakes and other mechanical work. He also had a couple of wreckers that kept him busy. Thriving business into the 70's.

In the mid to late 70's the convenience store/filling stations started appearing, one right across the street from him. Within a year he saw his competitor across the street selling gas at the pump cheaper than he was paying for it under the Union76 franchise. It finally came to a head when he looked across the street and saw a Union76 tanker unloading gas at the "pipeline". He called his rep and told them to come get their signs.

He continued the towing service right up till his death ~15 years ago. I have a lot of childhood memories from time spent there, "helping", sitting drinking a red pop while scraping off a head gasket or some other "kid" task.

 

[ovrszd]

My Uncle opened a Pure Firebird service station coming out of WWII, eventually changing to Union 76. He had a couple of employees that pumped gas, checked oil and cleaned windshields, and a mechanic that did brakes and other mechanical work. He also had a couple of wreckers that kept him busy. Thriving business into the 70's.

In the mid to late 70's the convenience store/filling stations started appearing, one right across the street from him. Within a year he saw his competitor across the street selling gas at the pump cheaper than he was paying for it under the Union76 franchise. It finally came to a head when he looked across the street and saw a Union76 tanker unloading gas at the "pipeline". He called his rep and told them to come get their signs.

He continued the towing service right up till his death ~15 years ago. I have a lot of childhood memories from time spent there, "helping", sitting drinking a red pop while scraping off a head gasket or some other "kid" task.

Added character to your personality that you couldn't have gotten anywhere else!!!