Possible spring

[OKnewguy]

I have been racking up the hours on the tractor, clearing an area to regain some yard that the woods had taken over. I was re-directing the route the water comes off the drive (concrete) and I had an area that seemed some what soft. I only was shaving about 2' off of this area and it was somewhat soft during the dirt work. Well, it turned out I had gone to deep in this area and put some fill back on it. Now the whole area is springy feeling. The top of the dirt is dry, I push a rod down and it is somewhat moist when I pull the rod out. If this is a spring, what will happen? Did I just not get things compacted eough?
Thanks in advance, Dave

 

[EddieWalker]

The more I learn about springs and water table the less I know!! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

One other option might be that it's an area that holds water after a rain. Sort of like a natural sponge for a period of time until it dries out after a storm.

How long since the last rain?

Does water drain to, or around that area?

Has there ever been a tree or stump in that spot? Has it ever been filled with dirt or sand?

I dug out a stump one time and didn't get the hole filled in right away. It rained and the hole filled up with water. I wated for the ground aroudn the hole to dry up enough to drive and filled the hole in with dirt.

The water saturated the dirt and it remained squishy for months and months.

In another place I did the same thing, but used the dozer to push the dirt in after a good rain. I went a little to far and burried the dozer in the hole. The next day I dug up all the dirt around the hole with my backhoe making a large hole into a massive one!!!

After getting the dozer out and refiling the hole, it remained soft for almost a year.

Eddie

 

[OKnewguy]

Thanks Eddie, I have been following your threads for ages and value your opinion. No tree's were there except 4" and less, we did get 5" of rain last Saturday (finally), but I did all of the work since. I do not know the history of the area untill we bought the place 3 years ago. It was at one time yard, but the woods had crept in, since the widow we bought the acreage from husband passed away about 15 years ago. It seemed like I was cutting in to virgin soil, it was about 5" of organic and then went to clay below that. I filled with whatever I had (since I took about 1' to much out), it comprised of some sod, organic woods soil and clay. The tractor work was fine and seemed stable, but now if you walk on it, it is REAL smongy or springy. My 11 year old doughter thinks it is cool /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif. My main concern is that this is about 10' from part of my drive and I was wondering if it might effect the concrete. I am currious to see how this will pan out, since I had never heard of anything like this.
Thanks Guys, Dave

 

[OKnewguy]

Oh almost forgot, water does drain to this area. It is just off of a downhill section of my drive. The whole reason for the excavating is to get the water to flow of the drive better. Over time the ground had raised about 5" higher over the drive, and it collected silt and would make that part of the drive a mess.
Dave

 

[EddieWalker]

Not knowing what I'm talking about, but just sharing what I've come across, it also sounds similar to what I found on my dozer.

I was digging out my lake and had removed about 5 feet of materail when the ground underneath started feeling mushy and unstable.

Walking on it made me think of jello. It all moved around, but still supported my weight, and even the 40,000 pound dozer. I didn't dig any deeper with the dozer though.

I did dig a hole into it with my backhoe and watched the water flow up and out of the hole. I called it a spring and asked about it here and on pondboss, which is a similar site, but just for fishing ponds and lakes.

The conclusion that I arrived at is I dug down to the water table. Opening up the hole allowed the water to flow freely like a spring, but unlike a spring, there isn't the preasure behind it to bring it to the surface.

For piece of mind and just to find out, I'd dig a hole in the middle of it. Do you have a post hole digger?

Watch what happens and try to figure out how to get the water further away from your road. Water and roads don't mix. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif'

Eddie

 

[Highbeam]

When you get soil above it's optimum water level or even wetter to saturation it will turn to spooge when it is worked or compacted. The spooge will not heal up very quickly especially if it is clay. Once the material has been ruined this way we don't even let contractors use it as trench backfill. You'll know spooge by its ability to pump or squeeze out when compacted instead of just getting harder. You can also see a bow wave in front of a tire when it is driven over. If we have a spot of spooge pumping in a new roadway before pavement then it is removed and replaced with good dry material.

You can't compact the spooge until it dries. Right now, grade the surface of the spooge so that it drains and then give it time to heal. Might take months. If you need it firm sooner, then you can start driving rock into it or you can dig it out and replace it with dry material.

 

[dmccarty]

OKnewguy,

It sounds like you just have a spot that it wet and needs to dry out. If you can divert the water away from that spot so it does not get wet you might solve the "problem".

I have learned that when the tractor moves over spongy ground, I call it jello since I can see the earth shaking, then its time to get out of there ASAP. On the clay I have once I see jello I have two maybe three more passes with the tractor and then the tires break though at which point I have a trench and a big mess.

I have acres of land that are like this. There are are spots here and there that can catch me. No rhyme or reason on the spots. The acreage seems to be all like this is almost flat and even though its at a high point the rain does not flow off and sinks into the ground. I have a couple of spots I rutted up before I learned to stay out of there when its wet. There is a logging road from 70+ years ago where they went through this soil and it looks like they where there yesterday.

Where I have dug up large tree stumps creating holes six feet deep and upto 12-15 feet across the dirt would be very jello after rains. The power line trenches where the same way. It has taken a year or so for the dirt to heal as others have stated. I just stayed out of those jello areas when it was wet.

In this area that has lots of jello ground I built my "foundation" for our barn to be with retaining wall blocks and gravel. I predug the holes to put in concrete pads for the pole barn and then filled in the gravel. This area drains and is on high ground. But where I predug the holes, after a heavy rain the gravel above the holes is damp while the rest of the pad is dry. When I dug the trenches to lay the gravel and retaining wall block the soil was very, very wet. And some of the holes/trench would fill with water. The water table was very high. This spot is the highest ground in 1 miles or so. The land falls from this point but that water table sits right below the service. Our house is just down hill a hundred feet or so and does not have this problem....

Soil is very strange.... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Later,
Dan

 

[Highbeam]

Great post...

"I have learned that when the tractor moves over spongy ground, I call it jello since I can see the earth shaking, then its time to get out of there ASAP. On the clay I have once I see jello I have two maybe three more passes with the tractor and then the tires break though at which point I have a trench and a big mess."

I am right there with you on this. I look for the jello too. Once the clay is graded to drain surface runoff and then coated with even a thin layer of rock to elimnate surface jello it makes a great roadway.

Right now the rains have stopped but the jello is still a little soft. It is too bad because once the moisture is gone enough to run equipment on it, there is not enough moisture to grow vegetation without irrigation.

 

[dmccarty]

HighBeam,

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( It is too bad because once the moisture is gone enough to run equipment on it, there is not enough moisture to grow vegetation without irrigation. )</font>

At which point I have ConcreteClay. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I have been trying to figure out how to write a proposal to JellO so the Bill Cosby can sell this stuff so I can make a fortune and retire. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

In all seriousness, I use Geotextile fabric on all of our permanent driveway and parking sections because of this soil. And it has worked wonders.

Later,
Dan

 

[OKnewguy]

Thanks for all of the input guys! I had not been able to post today before now. I was seeding before some rain that we might get. JELLO is exactly it, that is the perfect description! The water table makes perfet sense. There are a coule of damp area's right now, but most of it has a couple of inches of dried out dirt/clay on top. It is strange, when you jump on it, it still acts like jellow, but it cracks the top now. Last night I was researching springs and water tables, and this situation fits with what I found out. We are about halfway up a 1/2 mile hill, my lot is leveled out except for the corner near this area. Right after this area (about 30 to 40') the terrain drops about 15 feet fast for a creek. If I understand correctly what I read, this type of scenario is prime for this kind of thing. I seeded today and this area does have a good degree of slop now, do you think I am okay to water for the seeds? It does not seem like it krept closer to the drive. I have put some markers, and I really do not care if it will not support the tractor anymore I just do not want it to effect the drive.
Thanks a bunch for the input, Dave