Power Beyond and Loader Simultaneous Operation

[Thumbs Up Farm]

I learned from another forum about my need for a new loader control valve in the near future for my tractor.

I would like to be able to use the front loader with a hydraulic post auger in order to put down pressure on the auger with the loader. I was thinking I could use the Power Beyond feature to accomplish this.

However, after learning about the control valves and PB, it would seem that the loader and the PB attached auger cannot be operated at the same time.:thumbdown:

This valve could possibly overcome that issue;
3 SPOOL 25 GPM JOYSTICK LOADER VALVE W/GRAPPLE

There is nothing definitive, that I could see when reading about this valve, that says it will.

Does anyone know of a joystick loader control valve that will allow for simultaneous operation of an attachment through the PB port? Any suggestions on setting up such a system?

 

[CalG]

I learned from another forum about my need for a new loader control valve in the near future for my tractor.

I would like to be able to use the front loader with a hydraulic post auger in order to put down pressure on the auger with the loader. I was thinking I could use the Power Beyond feature to accomplish this.

However, after learning about the control valves and PB, it would seem that the loader and the PB attached auger cannot be operated at the same time.:thumbdown:

This valve could possibly overcome that issue;
3 SPOOL 25 GPM JOYSTICK LOADER VALVE W/GRAPPLE

There is nothing definitive, that I could see when reading about this valve, that says it will.

Does anyone know of a joystick loader control valve that will allow for simultaneous operation of an attachment through the PB port? Any suggestions on setting up such a system?

IF you desire the auger to turn constantly even while other functions are being controlled and operated, You will need a priority valve. Do a search for all the in's and out's on that device.

Multi spool valves, when more than one is open, permits fluid flow in proportion to resistance. That is, the system / function with the LEAST load, gets the MOST flow.

I suppose you could do something with flow restrictors that might also accomplish the task. That scheme might be much less costly, but it would take fiddling.

 

[J_J]

If the valve is a tandem valve, you should be able to operate any of the levers.

One lever operation, full lever will use all the fluid.

Two lever operation, full lever, each one will get half.

Three lever operation, full lever, each will get 1/3 of the flow.

You really need a motor spool valve for the auger.

However you could tie the third lever open and run the auger, and if you use the lift cyl, the auger speed will decrease for the time you are using the lift cyl.

The thing on PB, is that if the loader valve is using all the fluid, there will be no fluid going downstream.

You have flow through the PB when the loader valve is not using all the fluid, from 0 to full flow.

 

[Thumbs Up Farm]

Ideally I would want the auger to spin constantly with constant feed/torque while digging and applying down force.

After reading about the two spool version of the prince valve I was under the impression that the pressure going to the PB would be completely cut off if using either of the loader valves. If I understand what you are saying, then that is not true.

If I am understanding this correctly;

As long as I don't put full pressure on the loader the PB/auger would still turn although slower/less pressure depending on loader pressure. It would basically be a balancing act to get rotation and down pressure by me controlling the feed rate for the drill. When I stop applying down force I would get full auger force.

If that is the case then I think this would work because I could but pressure on intermittently with the loader which would hold with the weight of the tractor on the bit until it reached depth.

That should also work for extracting the auger if it gets stuck.

I had considered using a motor spool but decided that I would want to use the same spool for the grapple.

 

[Harry in Ky]

You seem to expand this operation every day. Now you're adding a grapple to the mix. What's next? If this is to be a "hobby farm" project, then the partial spool opening, reduced flow here, increased pressure there hodge podge will get you by well enough if you're willing to put up with it. If you plan to use this on a long term basis with speed, efficiency and production in mind, then just do it right. Get a twin stack pump, one for the loader, one for the auxiliaries, and separate valves for each system. DO use a motor center valve for the auger. You will need another function for a grapple since a motor center valve will not work there, but that's no big deal.

 

[Thumbs Up Farm]

Your right Harry!! I do seem to expand everyday.:laughing: Thanks for noticing

I have always wanted the grapple. I have a set of forks I made using a donated/broken set of forklift forks and have been clearing a lot of trees/brush using them. A grapple would help speed up the operation. I am also moving stacks of hay, lumber, etc. I would like to have a grapple on both ends actually. One for grabbing brush and such on the front, the other on the rear for grabbing logs, stumps, etc. similar to a log skidder. No need to operate these at the same time however

I have several buildings (pole barns) to erect and a LOT of fence thus the need for the auger. Would also love to have a stump grinder. I would love to buy all the toys I would need to "do it right" but I am restricted by my budget. So, yes I will have to put up with a some less than efficient methods. Other than the items I mentioned I don't know what's next. It depends on how far I am able to expand my operations/budget/knowledge.

Isn't life grand!!:thumbsup:

I didn't know there was such a thing as a "twin stack pump" or a lot of other things that I am learning about hydraulics for that matter. I can make most anything out of metal and weld anything except a broken hear and the crack of dawn, but I have very little knowledge/experience with hydraulics. I am learning a lot through these projects. God only knows what will be next.

 

[J_J]

Thumbs Up Farm,

You do realize that hyd augers come in different displacements, and the displacement and the GPM's will determine the auger speed, if driven directly.

Augers can run from 50 rpm upwards of 300 rpm.

If the auger is driving a gear box, you need to determine what rpm you want in order to select a hyd motor.

You can purchase hyd augers, or you can build them using a regular gear box auger and adding a hyd motor.

It depends on the displacement of the motor, and the GPM's, so here is some examples as far as GPM, speed, and torque.

You will be limited by the tractors GPM.


MODEL H-200
2.5" ROUND
ORDER NUMBER 113066

2" HEX
ORDER NUMBER 113001
Maximum Output Torque 2000 ft-lbs
Recommended Fluid Flow 10-20 gpm
Maximum Pressure-Continuous 3000 psi
Recommended Max Auger Dia-Dirt 30 in
Output Shaft 2.5" Round & 2" Hex
OUTPUT SPEED
OUTPUT TORQUE
Flow Speed
GPM RPM
10 48
12 55
14 64
16 73
18 82
20 92

Pressure Torque
PSI Lb-Ft
2000 1339
2200 1480
2400 1607
2600 1740
2800 1874
3000 2008

Another way you can split the flow, is by using a priority flow divider with relief, such as this.

The way it works is the the hyd fluid flows into this valve and the valve has a lever to select 0 GPM's to max GPM's.

The excess fluid is sent to another circuit, which could be the loader circuit.

So if yo want 90% auger flow, then you psh the lever to almost max. This will turn the auger, and allow some down pressure.

Another type of valve will equally split the flow into soy 50/50.

Another valve will split the valve into 70/30, and so foth.

1/2 NPT HYD FLOW CONTROL VALVE W/RELIEF RDRS150-16

5/30 GPM PRINCE PRIORITY FLOW DIVIDER W/RELIEF

http://www.surpluscenter.com/_MoreSpecs/i9-4158-xx.pdf

 

[Thumbs Up Farm]

Once again, great info J_J!!

Yes, I have been research various displacements, flow, pressures and RPMs for my auger. I was/am leaning more towards using a standard gearbox and turning it with a hydraulic motor.

The best I can tell right now, I need about 3100 in/lbs max torque and around 350 max rpm. I was looking at a 7.6 and 9.2 cu in motor. Again, this is assuming using a standard pto driven gearbox only replacing pto with Hyd. motor. The pto driven models run at slightly above engine idle assuming 540 rpm on my engine at 1200 rpm rating. So 350rpm should be sufficient for the hyd motor, I think?
Gear box ratios vary, but are somewhere around 3:1 Target RPM for the auger is 80 so I would have the Hyd. motor turning at about 240rpm, even that may be to fast for say a 12" or larger auger, so assuming just above engine idle should produce roughly the same result? I don't expect to use anything smaller than a 9" auger.

I would prefer all hydraulic. But don't know much about them and figure if my experimentation fails I could revert the system back to pto.

Additionally, it seems the larger hyd. motor it would take to direct drive the auger, would be overly expense. Looking at all hyd. drive system they run $1500-$2000. As you probably have discerned by now, I am looking to do the job for cheap. Don't mind the research and fabrication work I enjoy that part of it.

I got my pressure gage and will be measuring my system soon. Best info I have right now is that my system produces 2125 psi and 20 gpm.

The info, you have on the larger motor is interesting. Is that from surplus center? This project keeps involving and is taking on a life of its own. But I like it,

Thanks for the great info!

 

[J_J]

This hyd motor has been used as an auger directly driving a 2 in shaft .

28.3 cu in WHITE RE WHEEL MOUNT HYD MOTOR

20 GPM
28.3 cu in displacement
=
163 rpm, torque of 938 ft lbs

If you then run that through a 1:2 gearbox, the rpm would be 81.5 rpm, and a torque of 1876 ft lbs.

 

[Thumbs Up Farm]

I like that motor, gives me ideas for another project but, I don't think I will have enough pressure for those results with my tractor. This calls for 2500 psi. I only have 2125 according to tractor data, and I still haven't measure my relief pressure settings.

How do you come up with 938 ft lbs torque? I get 808.3 ft lbs. based on the numbers on this link. With my system pressure it will be less than that.

My thinking is to basically match the torque of my tractor PTO. By my calculations I need 3,199.2 in lbs or 266.6 ft lbs. supplied to the gearbox. This is based on tractordata for MF 40 engine. Torque is 120 ft lbs at 1200 rpm which gives me 276 ft lbs at 540 PTO rpm. Of course, I will not be running that high of an rpm regardless of which method is used to turn the gearbox. Maybe I miscalculated, or am not being aggressive enough in my thinking as far as size/power for the auger?

Here is the gearbox I am looking at using.
http://www.agrisupply.com/gearbox-hd-post-hole-digger-ratio/p/61358/

The ratio for the PTO driven gearbox is 3.18:1 So, at my calculated torque, this would produce 845.88 ft lbs torque at the auger. That should be sufficient to power a 12" auger which is what this box is designed for. I don't anticipate needing anything larger than 12".

I would like a hyd. motor that would eliminate the need for the gear box altogether it would need to have at about 850 ft lbs (10,200 in lbs)of output torque. But, I have to be able to power it with around 2000 psi and 20 gpm in order to use it on my tractor.