Power beyond valve questions, dont want to mess it up

[schmalts]

OK, so my tractor has crappy controls and I am updating it for multiple reasons. My current FEL valve has no power beyond. It has only 2 lines going to it, a pressure from pump, and a return to tank with a internal relief valve. My new remote joystick valve came with 3 lines, and I assume from pictures on the web and the type of fitting installed that one of the three hoses is going to be for a power beyond. 2 questions...
If I don't want to use a power beyond circuit, can I just plug off the power beyond Bushing/fitting ?
Second question, If I decide to use the power beyond, can it be used to add just remote hook without any valves for a backhoe or log trailer, meaning that if nothing was plugged in would it dead head and blow up something? Would I need some kind of switch or bypass? they would not always be plugged in meaning that circuit would not have a return to the tank with nothing plugged into the remotes. Here is the new control valve, I bought it sight unseen and it has no instructions. If I need something to divert to the tank when nothing is plugged in to the power beyond, what would that be?

 

[oldnslo]

If I don't want to use a power beyond circuit, can I just plug off the power beyond Bushing/fitting ?

If your valve has the power beyond bushing or fitting installed you cannot just plug this. That will force all of the oil over the relief valve.

Second question, If I decide to use the power beyond, can it be used to add just remote hook without any valves for a backhoe or log trailer, meaning that if nothing was plugged in would it dead head and blow up something? No you must have a path for this oil to return to tank. Some systems require insatlling a hose between the pressure and tank in remote connections.

Is there a brand name or model number on that valve stack?

 

[schmalts]

No you must have a path for this oil to return to tank. Some systems require insatlling a hose between the pressure and tank in remote connections.

Is there a brand name or model number on that valve stack?

No name on the MONOBLOCK. Says Italy on it.
So, I will use the power beyond hose and run it to a quick disconnect in the back of the tractor. I will also add a return line disconnect to the tank. However, again, when the implement is not plugged in, The power beyond line will dead head at the disconnect. So is this what one of those flow diverters is for? Of what else would I install to keep the deadhead from taking place when nothing is plugged into these disconnects I want to install??

 

[CobyRupert]

Don't drop that on your foot.......again!

 

[CADplans]

Of what else would I install to keep the deadhead from taking place?

Think of this like a garden hose,,, that you are not allowed to shut off.
I highly recommend no quick disconnects,,
why have a quick disconnect,, you can not disconnect it, that would stop flow.

The PB MUST always have a path back to the tank,,, ALWAYS.

Well,,, you can shut it off,, first the oil will overheat, then you will ruin the pump. :confused2:

Think garden hose,,, ALWAYS on,,, :thumbsup:

 

[schmalts]

The PB MUST always have a path back to the tank,,, ALWAYS.

Well,,, you can shut it off,, first the oil will overheat, then you will ruin the pump. :confused2:

Think garden hose,,, ALWAYS on,,, :thumbsup:

Yea I know, that is what I am asking to install to ensure that path back to the tank is always there.
Because I dont always want a log spliter, log crane, backhoe.... attached. Why would I not use quick disconnect? I would think there has to be some device to safely allow the flow back to the tank if nothing is connected to the hook ups.

 

[Leejohn]

A short hose that you can plug into the 2 lines to loop it to tank. I think you can buy a high flow, and high psi ball valve to loop it also. Look at surplus parts for the valve.

 

[schmalts]

A short hose that you can plug into the 2 lines to loop it to tank. I think you can buy a high flow, and high psi ball valve to loop it also. Look at surplus parts for the valve.

I was thinking of the ball valve hooked in parallel too. That way I could open the ball valve to bypass and unhook the attachments from the disconnects when the tractor is still running. I was just wondering if there was a dedicated device for that

 

[Leejohn]

Where do you live in Wisc?

 

[muddstopper]

OK, so my tractor has crappy controls and I am updating it for multiple reasons. My current FEL valve has no power beyond. It has only 2 lines going to it, a pressure from pump, and a return to tank with a internal relief valve. My new remote joystick valve came with 3 lines, and I assume from pictures on the web and the type of fitting installed that one of the three hoses is going to be for a power beyond. 2 questions...
If I don't want to use a power beyond circuit, can I just plug off the power beyond Bushing/fitting ?
Second question, If I decide to use the power beyond, can it be used to add just remote hook without any valves for a backhoe or log trailer, meaning that if nothing was plugged in would it dead head and blow up something? Would I need some kind of switch or bypass? they would not always be plugged in meaning that circuit would not have a return to the tank with nothing plugged into the remotes. Here is the new control valve, I bought it sight unseen and it has no instructions. If I need something to divert to the tank when nothing is plugged in to the power beyond, what would that be?

To answer the first question. Looking at the pic of the valve, the return line is the top one on the right hand side, the one below it would be the PB . If you just plug the power beyond, you will have serious problems. You are correct, it must always have a path back to tank. If you dont want or need the PB the best thing to do is to remove the fitting from the valve and open the path back to tank thru the tank port. Power beyond in a valve is usually configured a couple of ways. First the fitting for the PB port is made so that when it is screwed into the vavle body, a portion of that fitting blocks the tank passage inside the valve body. Another way is there is a sleeve installed behind the pb fitting that block tank passage and the fitting then screws in the valve after the sleeve. Another way is you remove the tank fitting and you could find a plug screwed into the valve that blocks the passage between the Return and the PB. To convert the valve to a non power beyond, you simply remove the plugs or sleeves and then oil can flow into the tank port back to tank.

To answer your second question, it has already been answered, if the valve is set up for power beyond, then the pb port must be plumbed back to tank. You will blow something up if it isnt. Now I know you want a work around for just incase you decide you dont want to remove the sleeves or plug from the valve and lose the pb capability of the valve. It a simple fix, just get a set of quickconnects and put a Tee in your return line. run a hose from the PB and use the quick connect to couple the pb hose into the return line. this way, Your pb will always be returning to tank, and if you decide you want to hook some other piece of equipment you simply run the PB to the other control valve and the return from that control valve back to the QC already plumbed into your return line.

 

[LD1]

Lets address this one at a time here Please answer all my questions in red.

OK, so my tractor has crappy controls and I am updating it for multiple reasons. My current FEL valve has no power beyond. It has only 2 lines going to it, a pressure from pump, and a return to tank with a internal relief valve.

What is crappy about the controls? Are you sure it has no PB? Just because it has two lines, means nothing. It can still have a PB port that all you need is the appropriate plug for.

My new remote joystick valve came with 3 lines, and I assume from pictures on the web and the type of fitting installed that one of the three hoses is going to be for a power beyond.

If the remote valve is what you pictured.......its not a joystick valve. Thats where you confused me the first time I read it. And yes, the valve you show pictured has power beyond.

If I don't want to use a power beyond circuit, can I just plug off the power beyond Bushing/fitting ?

This has been addressed, no you cannot just plug it off. But I am not sure about your setup just yet.....as I think you may NEED PB.

Second question, If I decide to use the power beyond, can it be used to add just remote hook without any valves for a backhoe or log trailer,

YES. As long as the log trailer or backhoe has their own valves. Because the PB is always gonna be flowing. Gotta have a valve to control the action.

meaning that if nothing was plugged in would it dead head and blow up something? Would I need some kind of switch or bypass? they would not always be plugged in meaning that circuit would not have a return to the tank with nothing plugged into the remotes. Here is the new control valve, I bought it sight unseen and it has no instructions. If I need something to divert to the tank when nothing is plugged in to the power beyond, what would that be?

If PB cannot return to tank IE: you just unplugg it......yes it would blow things up. (not really, but you would cook your oil forcing everything over a relief)

If you wanted to get fancy, you could vet a 3 way valve and hard plumb it into one of the lines. In one position, the 3-way would allow oil to pass through to whatever you were operating, and return back via the tank line. In the other position, it would just divert to tank. But all that is really un needed. Easier solution would be to just use one male, and one female quick coupler on the lines and just hook them back to each other when not in use. Other option as mentioned.....just use a short piece of hose with a male tip on each end (if the tractor side has the female couplers).


Now on to some questions that I have not seen addressed yet and you really need to figure out before you spend any more money or do anything:

1. How are you gonna supply pressure to this remote valve?
2. Never heard of a kama 554, does it have open center or closed center hydraulics.


1a. Typically on a tractor with a FEL and no remotes.....the FEL valve is fed from the pump. And power beyond comes out of the FEL valve and supplies the 3PH. If one wanted to add remotes, they would buy a valve just like you did, and insert between the FEL and 3PH. Whereas the PB of the FEL will then feed the new valve for the remotes, and PB would come out of that to feed the 3PH.

2a. This is important. You mentioned the FEL not having power beyond....makes me wonder where the 3PH is getting its power from? Weather this tractor has a second hydraulic pump? or is it closed center hydraulics? IF it is closed center hydraulics, you dont need any PB for anything. Simply tee into pressure lines where ever convenient and your done.

But if this is indeed open center hydraulics (and possibly two separate pumps....one for 3PH and one for FEL), then you need PB somewhere. If the FEL valve truly is lacking PB feature, you may need to unhook the pressure line coming from the pump off the FEL valve, and go straight to the new remote valve....making it the first valve in the series. Then you would need to take the PB line off the new valve, and hook that back to the supply (pressure) on the FEL valve.

 

[schmalts]

What is crappy about the controls? Are you sure it has no PB? Just because it has two lines, means nothing. It can still have a PB port that all you need is the appropriate plug for.



If the remote valve is what you pictured.......its not a joystick valve. Thats where you confused me the first time I read it. And yes, the valve you show pictured has power beyond.


This has been addressed, no you cannot just plug it off. But I am not sure about your setup just yet.....as I think you may NEED PB.



YES. As long as the log trailer or backhoe has their own valves. Because the PB is always gonna be flowing. Gotta have a valve to control the action.



If PB cannot return to tank IE: you just unplugg it......yes it would blow things up. (not really, but you would cook your oil forcing everything over a relief)

If you wanted to get fancy, you could vet a 3 way valve and hard plumb it into one of the lines. In one position, the 3-way would allow oil to pass through to whatever you were operating, and return back via the tank line. In the other position, it would just divert to tank. But all that is really un needed. Easier solution would be to just use one male, and one female quick coupler on the lines and just hook them back to each other when not in use. Other option as mentioned.....just use a short piece of hose with a male tip on each end (if the tractor side has the female couplers).


Now on to some questions that I have not seen addressed yet and you really need to figure out before you spend any more money or do anything:

1. How are you gonna supply pressure to this remote valve?
2. Never heard of a kama 554, does it have open center or closed center hydraulics.


1a. Typically on a tractor with a FEL and no remotes.....the FEL valve is fed from the pump. And power beyond comes out of the FEL valve and supplies the 3PH. If one wanted to add remotes, they would buy a valve just like you did, and insert between the FEL and 3PH. Whereas the PB of the FEL will then feed the new valve for the remotes, and PB would come out of that to feed the 3PH.

2a. This is important. You mentioned the FEL not having power beyond....makes me wonder where the 3PH is getting its power from? Weather this tractor has a second hydraulic pump? or is it closed center hydraulics? IF it is closed center hydraulics, you dont need any PB for anything. Simply tee into pressure lines where ever convenient and your done.

First question, Yes it is a joystick control valve. You were thrown off by the fact the cables and joystick were not in the picture, see updated picture.
Second, My tractor has 3 dedicated pumps that share nothing else with each other. One for PS, one for the 3pt, and one for the FEL.
The FEL pump is the largest capacity so I am going to use that one to control this log trailer. It is directly plumbed to the existing FEL valve, a crappy 2 circuit stack valve with no PB port. No make or model numbers making it impossible to add more stacks. Because that pump only controls the FEL valve, the Valve only had a pressure and tank return port. I am upgrading because I need a 3 spool valve to control a log grab I am adding to the FEL, plus I want the joystick control. This valve has the joystick and a second lever just for the 3rd spool control.
I think my decision is to add a ball valve that will connect the PB and return to tank lines where I add the quick connects. That way I can open that valve when the tractor is still running and it will make it so I can remove the log trailer connectors while the engine is running because that pressure will take the easy path to the tank with that valve open. When I want to connect the trailer, just go in reverse, connect the trailer lines to the quick connects, and then close the ball valve to route pressure to the log trailer.
So, as far as making sure what line is the PB for this valve, my thoughts are that if I blow compressed air into the pressure line with all the valve handles in the neutral position the air should come out the PB line. Am I correct in this logic?

 

[schmalts]

Where do you live in Wisc?

Ummm.. why?

 

[LD1]

First question, Yes it is a joystick control valve. You were thrown off by the fact the cables and joystick were not in the picture, see updated picture.
Second, My tractor has 3 dedicated pumps that share nothing else with each other. One for PS, one for the 3pt, and one for the FEL.
The FEL pump is the largest capacity so I am going to use that one to control this log trailer. It is directly plumbed to the existing FEL valve, a crappy 2 circuit stack valve with no PB port. No make or model numbers making it impossible to add more stacks. Because that pump only controls the FEL valve, the Valve only had a pressure and tank return port. I am upgrading because I need a 3 spool valve to control a log grab I am adding to the FEL, plus I want the joystick control. This valve has the joystick and a second lever just for the 3rd spool control.
I think my decision is to add a ball valve that will connect the PB and return to tank lines where I add the quick connects. That way I can open that valve when the tractor is still running and it will make it so I can remove the log trailer connectors while the engine is running because that pressure will take the easy path to the tank with that valve open. When I want to connect the trailer, just go in reverse, connect the trailer lines to the quick connects, and then close the ball valve to route pressure to the log trailer.
So, as far as making sure what line is the PB for this valve, my thoughts are that if I blow compressed air into the pressure line with all the valve handles in the neutral position the air should come out the PB line. Am I correct in this logic?

That explains things a bit better.

I was thrown off by seeing a 3-spool valve....then you referencing joystick.

So if I understand you correctly.....you want to use the valve you have pictured in place of the FEL control....with the third spool controlling the log grab on the FEL.

Further you want to use the PB capabilities of this new valve for rear functions....currently being a log trailer.

What you describe will work just fine.....just have to have that PB port always have an open to tank. (the PB port is the one on the side of the valve....where the tank port is right on top.....kinda looks like it has something already threaded into it). But you are correct....All valves in neutral and pressure in the P port......air should come out the PB port and NOTHING out the T port. If you shift a spool.....pressure in P port....air should come out of one of the work ports. The other work port on that spool would then be open back to tank.

I would first ask what kind of valve the log trailer has? And is it an open center valve?

I would also carefully think about what other hydraulic needs you have for the back. You mentioned a backhoe? Have you any future plans for a toplink or side link cylinder? log splitter? hydraulic rear angle blade? Dump trailer? hydraulic transport wheels on a bushhog or disc? Hydraulic rippers on a box blade?

for simplicity sake.....I would consider adding at least a single remote valve and pair of couplers back there. A rear single valve, nothing fancy, being open center would in itself give the flow path from PB back to tank. No valve or coupling hoses back together with this setup.

And would give the option of running hydraulic stuff off the back that dont have its own valve like all the items I mentioned above in blue

 

[schmalts]

That explains things a bit better.

I was thrown off by seeing a 3-spool valve....then you referencing joystick.

So if I understand you correctly.....you want to use the valve you have pictured in place of the FEL control....with the third spool controlling the log grab on the FEL.

Further you want to use the PB capabilities of this new valve for rear functions....currently being a log trailer.

What you describe will work just fine.....just have to have that PB port always have an open to tank. (the PB port is the one on the side of the valve....where the tank port is right on top.....kinda looks like it has something already threaded into it). But you are correct....All valves in neutral and pressure in the P port......air should come out the PB port and NOTHING out the T port. If you shift a spool.....pressure in P port....air should come out of one of the work ports. The other work port on that spool would then be open back to tank.

I would first ask what kind of valve the log trailer has? And is it an open center valve?

I would also carefully think about what other hydraulic needs you have for the back. You mentioned a backhoe? Have you any future plans for a toplink or side link cylinder? log splitter? hydraulic rear angle blade? Dump trailer? hydraulic transport wheels on a bushhog or disc? Hydraulic rippers on a box blade?

for simplicity sake.....I would consider adding at least a single remote valve and pair of couplers back there. A rear single valve, nothing fancy, being open center would in itself give the flow path from PB back to tank. No valve or coupling hoses back together with this setup.

And would give the option of running hydraulic stuff off the back that dont have its own valve like all the items I mentioned above in blue

Sounds all about right. The log trailer valve system is pretty much like a glorified backhoe valve with open centers but with a few extra spools for the grapple functions. Currently it is set up with a PTO pump (very undersized since I do not have 1000RPM option) and has it's own tank. I know I will have to make some kind of bypass to divert the tank flow to the return on the tractor instead. I would take the tank off but I want to leave the PTO option open at this time if I find out my tractor pump is not any better (or worse)