Power steering issue

   / Power steering issue
  • Thread Starter
#11  
Yes, motor oil. The evidence is pretty strong that we are dealing with water in that front axle housing. My judgement is that getting every drop of water out of those convoluted bevel-gear housings is a whole lot more important than what oil we end up running in that axle housing. After all, if you look at old factory literature, Yanmar themselves never could decide which oil should be used.

Motor oil will do fine. It has the detergency to help form an emulsion to hold any remaining water in suspension until we can drain that out, too. As for the multiweight aspect, that's an advantage we also get with motor oil, and it's a big advantage if we are trying to deal with changing axle oil this cold winter. For you tropic birds, it's winter here in the non-california USofA. When the temperature drops into single digits, GL90 just doesn't flow well enough in the cold to even get it reliably into or out of the axle housing. Then try to figure out where the level should be when the GL90 has roughly the viscosity of honey. Add a sprinkling of wind-blown snow, and motor oil is easy to deal with by comparison.

We mentioned on this forum before that the whole subject of what lube for the 4wd front axle never was never really resolved by Yanmar. Reading through twenty year's worth of their technical publications, they are quite proud of having invented that type of 4wd front axle, but in their shop manuals they quite often recommend two completely different oils: using either a light oil and a heavy gear lube in the front axle ---and they do so without any word of explanation as to which to use or when. The only way that makes sense is that they thought chosing one over the other was simply common sense. So I'm sort of agreeing with the Yanmar designers :). I personally think that those guys got tired of debating which oil to use in their new fancy axle and just ended up solving the problem by specifying two completely different oils. You don't have to be a lubrication engineer to see the problem: their nifty axle has lots of sliding bevel gear friction (GL lube indicated), and some ball and roller bearings (light oil recommended). The axle assembly also has some seals which operate "wet" continuously. Those seals will benefit from some of the motor oil additives & the combustion additives won't matter. There are good arguments in favor of a multiweight high detergent oil with additives there - and motor oil is an easy way to get it.

Bottom line is that a real front axle failure is almost unknown in Yanmars as long as the axle has any kind of lube in there at all (although leaky seals are common enough). Just get the water out - that's the important thing. Consider changing it several times.

End of rant. And btw, California....thanks for asking question.
rScotty


Just finished draining an refilling the front axle oil (about 3.5 qts on the dip stick indicator) reservoir with 10-30 motor oil with detergent. The oil that drained out was not 90 wt gear oil best guess 30wt oil. Outside temps are above freezing and the steering was not frozen. Checked out the Yanmar service manual that called for 90 wt gear oil. All in all rScotty thanks for the education I'll run this oil for a while then flush again with motor oil as oil is cheap so far and it gets recycled in the oil/wood stove to heat the house. Thanks for the input.
 
   / Power steering issue #12  
Just finished draining an refilling the front axle oil (about 3.5 qts on the dip stick indicator) reservoir with 10-30 motor oil with detergent. The oil that drained out was not 90 wt gear oil best guess 30wt oil. Outside temps are above freezing and the steering was not frozen.

Glad you did it. Please keep us updated. With any luck we got the problem figured out and it is one of those rare times when the cure is easy. Wouldn't that be nice! Next step is to take it down the road a mile at high speed - really mix that oil in there. After that of course all we need is a spell of cold weather to check it out.... :)

OK...so it looked thinner than 90wt? Well, that may or may not mean anything. How did it smell? it's not always so easy to tell which lube or oil we have by how it flows at low velocity like pouring speed. Some of the lighter (75w and down) gear lubes flow like motor oil when they are being poured. The difference is more in the additives and how each reacts to higher velocity shearing forces. The kind of forces you get when one gear tooth wipes across its mate . Plus there's no helpful detergent in gear lube.

Was there anything else unusual about the oil when you drained it? Smell? Color? Appearance?
good luck,
rScotty
 
   / Power steering issue
  • Thread Starter
#13  
Glad you did it. Please keep us updated. With any luck we got the problem figured out and it is one of those rare times when the cure is easy. Wouldn't that be nice! Next step is to take it down the road a mile at high speed - really mix that oil in there. After that of course all we need is a spell of cold weather to check it out.... :)

OK...so it looked thinner than 90wt? Well, that may or may not mean anything. How did it smell? it's not always so easy to tell which lube or oil we have by how it flows at low velocity like pouring speed. Some of the lighter (75w and down) gear lubes flow like motor oil when they are being poured. The difference is more in the additives and how each reacts to higher velocity shearing forces. The kind of forces you get when one gear tooth wipes across its mate . Plus there's no helpful detergent in gear lube.

Was there anything else unusual about the oil when you drained it? Smell? Color? Appearance?
good luck,
rScotty

To me there wasn't a gear oil odor. Had the amber oil color, noticed some discolored streaks in the oil drain pan but no apparent water in oil mix look. Also no metal shaving or flacks. Have to wait for the next extended cold spell to test the steering.:thumbsup:
 
   / Power steering issue #14  
OK. We'll just have to wait for the next cold spell. That could take awhile. In the Rocky Mountains we are having an unusually warm & dry winter. Temps yesterday in the 50s at 7000 ft.

It's all positive even if the problem doesn't turn out to be water in the front axle housing; most everything else is easier to deal with.
rScotty
 
   / Power steering issue #15  
I'm still bothered that there wasn't water in the oil you drained. Did you get to all three drain points on the Yanmar front axle? I would have expected the water to migrate to the lowest places where it could ice up & affect the steering. In addition to the drain on the center portion of the front axle, there are also drains outboard at the two lowest places - one way out on each end of the pivoting portion of the front axle housing. The front wheels bolt up close to these pivoting housings and that makes the drain points there hard to see. But that is where I'd expect the water to be.
I don't have a sectional view for your tractor's front axle, but here is one for the YM226d. It should be the same principle. In this drawing the center drain plug is part 8 and the outer drain plugs are part 26.
rScotty
 

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   / Power steering issue
  • Thread Starter
#16  
I'm still bothered that there wasn't water in the oil you drained. Did you get to all three drain points on the Yanmar front axle? I would have expected the water to migrate to the lowest places where it could ice up & affect the steering. In addition to the drain on the center portion of the front axle, there are also drains outboard at the two lowest places - one way out on each end of the pivoting portion of the front axle housing. The front wheels bolt up close to these pivoting housings and that makes the drain points there hard to see. But that is where I'd expect the water to be.
I don't have a sectional view for your tractor's front axle, but here is one for the YM226d. It should be the same principle. In this drawing the center drain plug is part 8 and the outer drain plugs are part 26.
rScotty

Got all 3 drainage plugs removed and drained. Didn't notice any sign of an oil water mix tho.
 
   / Power steering issue
  • Thread Starter
#17  
When you put heat for only an hr. or so your driving the moisture in cause frost on the inside of your housing. I don't know how cold it is where you are but when real cold it would take many hrs. ( 24 or more)to thoroughly warm everything up. Trans hydraulic oil would work well to replace gear lube in the front axle.

The lowest temp was 3 degrees F, but I waited a few days for 20 degree weather before heating and starting. I agree an hour or so wasn't enough time to get it cozy warm.
 
   / Power steering issue #18  
The lowest temp was 3 degrees F, but I waited a few days for 20 degree weather before heating and starting. I agree an hour or so wasn't enough time to get it cozy warm.

uh...oh....
Well then I'm afraid we are going to have to thaw you and the tractor out for at least a day and then refreeze the one or both of you back down to zero or below for awhile.
Don't complain now, it's all for the good of science.
Otherwise we are in serious danger of losing a really elegant theory as to why the steering got stuck.

rScotty
 
   / Power steering issue
  • Thread Starter
#19  
uh...oh....
Well then I'm afraid we are going to have to thaw you and the tractor out for at least a day and then refreeze the one or both of you back down to zero or below for awhile.
Don't complain now, it's all for the good of science.
Otherwise we are in serious danger of losing a really elegant theory as to why the steering got stuck.

Touche: Ya thought I'd wait for the Spring thaw, then dissemble an trace the steering point A to B. I do not recall last winters low temps,
just way more snow, but never had steering troubles. Fortunately I am at 2,500' elevation N central ID foothills of the Clearwater Mountain Range and the zone has fairly mild winters and less snow in comparison to areas 30 or so miles in circumference at this site. I'll pass on another deep freeze keep that on the East side of the Continental Divide this Winter.
 

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