"Powersafe" clutch on BCS

BCSSHOP · Feb 29, 2012

Thank you Oldmech for reminding us about how great the Gravely tractors were (and still are for many users). These machines where built in a different era when the features and performance were dictated by needs of the end uses. When Ariens purchased Gravely I never would have believed they would pull the final plug on two-wheel tractors built in North America. A sad day for the industry. And I have to say a sad day for me as a dealer selling BCS and Troybilt at the time. I loved the competition and camaraderie with a fellow dealers selling machines each suited to similar but different users.

Your second point is the compliance with the EU directive for two-wheel tractors since we now realize we are playing with EU equipment and we'll have to play by their rules. BCS has told us their plans as you can download their EU two-wheel tractor catalog at: http://www.bcsagri.it/uploads/tx_bcs/BCS_Powersafe_ing-ted_03.pdf. This is their near term future, love it or hate it, but here it is.

I believe anyone else who wants to sell us two-wheel tractors in North America has to step up and tell us what they will be building that complies with the directive. Without compliance the EU manufacturers have no home market. So to re-ask a question just ask on this forum, Grillo what are your plans for future models? And I have to ask, do you have the financial resources to pull it off. Getting stuck with an orphan just plain sucks.

farmerboybill · Feb 29, 2012

BCSSHOP said:
Thank you Oldmech for reminding us about how great the Gravely tractors were (and still are for many users). These machines where built in a different era when the features and performance were dictated by needs of the end uses. When Ariens purchased Gravely I never would have believed they would pull the final plug on two-wheel tractors built in North America. A sad day for the industry. And I have to say a sad day for me as a dealer selling BCS and Troybilt at the time. I loved the competition and camaraderie with a fellow dealers selling machines each suited to similar but different users.

Your second point is the compliance with the EU directive for two-wheel tractors since we now realize we are playing with EU equipment and we'll have to play by their rules. BCS has told us their plans as you can download their EU two-wheel tractor catalog at: http://www.bcsagri.it/uploads/tx_bcs/BCS_Powersafe_ing-ted_03.pdf. This is their near term future, love it or hate it, but here it is.

I believe anyone else who wants to sell us two-wheel tractors in North America has to step up and tell us what they will be building that complies with the directive. Without compliance the EU manufacturers have no home market. So to re-ask a question just ask on this forum, Grillo what are your plans for future models? And I have to ask, do you have the financial resources to pull it off. Getting stuck with an orphan just plain sucks.

Hi John,

I am not trying to needle you. I think you're among the top BCS dealers in the US. My concerns regarding BCS's and BCS America's market decisions are genuine.

I appreciate you finally admitting that the powersafe clutch was only invented to comply with EU standards.

Let me ask you this - You say the US is 15% of BCS's market share. How much of their market share is affected by this new EU standard? How much of their market share is the rest of the world, not affected by this standard? How are they planning on pushing a tractor with an unnecessarily expensive clutch in developing countries in Central America, South America, Africa and Asia? There are many videos on youtube from these countries that make it obvious BCS would like to be a global company. A $4000 tractor is NOT gonna sell in Sub-Saharan Africa. If they want to get into emerging markets across the world, they will need to run two lines - the unnecessarily complicated clutch where it's required and the low(er) cost clutch where it's not. They seem to think they can shoulder it into the US to help offset the cost of tooling up for it. We're rich, right?

I'll say two paragraphs about Grillo only because it has been brought up by others, but will not say more on this thread as it is about the BCS powersafe clutch. If you want to talk about Grillo, make a new thread.

As far as Grillo being committed to the US market, they are. And as BCS continues to price themselves out of the market, Grillo's market share will grow. The price gap between the 107d with a simple cone clutch and the 853 with a simple cone clutch is at least $1000 . When the real price of the powersafe hits the market, the 740 will be over $1500 more than the 107d. Timberxx has already mentioned being fed up with BCS's price increase on the 853 this year. Do you really think he and others are gonna be happy with a $1500 price gap? The 107d will accept all the attachments a BCS 853 will, AND it will accept many more than BCS America currently offers, thanks to Earth Tools bringing in many more attachments than BCS America. Keep in mind, BCS mowers are really Del Morino, their chippers are Caravaggi, and their rotary plows are Berta.

I gotta warn everyone right here regarding Grillo. There are two distributers of Grillo in the US - Grillo America and Earth Tools (who is also the #1 BCS dealer in the US by a long, long shot). If you want info on Grillo and their goings on, check out and deal with Earth Tools. Earth Tools has sold nearly 1000 Grillo tractors through their network of dealers since 2005.

BCS America doesn't even bring in the right tiller tines for their older models. If you order tines for the tiller on you 735, you'll get the current style tines, which happen to be a royal PITA to install. If you want the original tines for your older BCS machines, you GOTTA GO TO EARTH TOOLS. How's that for BCS America's commitment to their older machines?

TimberXX · Feb 29, 2012

Very interesting conversation guys.

I never thought Earth Tools was a distributor for Grillo tractors.

wstr75 · Mar 1, 2012

Bill, I see your point about prices and also buy your logic about the cone clutch, but I also see John's points. The cone clutch activation pull strength and small hands issues are a problem for many folks, myself included as "Arthur" continues to weaken my hands. He also makes a good case for the cone clutch being at the limit regarding larger powerplants. Lastly, he also makes a good case for BCS having to meet these requirements in the EU, their home market. The point I'd like to make is the PowerSafe clutch is going to significantly reduce the danger of tiller jump and the new controls for the forward/backward lever also improve safety. I've had tiller jump occur several times and its amazing how a heavy 853 can suddenly go airborne. I've also nearly hurt myself big time by the reverse lever snagging a limb at high rpms and suddenly the monster is coming backwards into me. Fact: These events occur faster than my brain can process. Faster than my brain can process means sometimes pulling the wrong lever on my multiple lever 853. The PowerSafe makes it easy with no sudden lever pulling decision, just letting go of the handle bar altogether. I'd love to have a new 740, but won't because I've already got what I need and to trade would kill me economically.

Insofar as the the road speed gear going away, my 853 with the biggest OD rims/tires is plenty fast in 3rd gear for pulling a cart, IMHO (I don't have a cart, but third gear wide open with these wheels is faster than a brisk walking speed). Lastly, BCS is likely following a premium marketing strategy. Every company has to pick their best market space. Premium is the space for them and because of that choice, they have the highest prices and highest value to cost designs. Grillo is undoubtedly aiming for the market space appealing to those who want a more economical feature set. We see this in the automobile market, electric tools market and other markets where features, longevity, power, etc. are the differentiating factors. At our business, we have found Milwaukee cordless drills have better chucks and better overall longevity aspects than the other brands we have used. We pay more for our Milwaukee drills but are getting what we want. Most people are not highly mechanically inclined and just want to make whatever farming, mowing or other action happen when they start the motor and leave the shed. I'm mechanically inclined (not to the degree of Oldmech or Bill in WI!) and can fix most stuff, but because I am time challenged and getting older, am willing to pay more for safer, easier to use equipment with more attachment options. Ca la vie.
Bill in NC

farmerboybill · Mar 1, 2012

Hey Bill,

I don't buy the theory that this powersafe clutch will be safer. The current OPC will kill the engine within 4 seconds at full throttle. The powersafe kills the tiller and transmission in one second - and it does it HARD. Their video shows the tiller tipping forward relatively hard, but I don't think he's even at full throttle and he's in first gear. They put music over the sound of the tractor working, so it's hard to tell. He also threw his hands in the air. I don't know if he threw the machine up (why would he?) or if he was used to the machine bucking when the powersafe was activated and made sure he was outta the way. It's not a very good demonstration, in the end. I want to see a video of the powersafe activated with tractor at full throttle in second or third gear.

Here's the thing - if you're in a situation you described with the powersafe, you still need to LET GO. In a panic situation when the machine is coming at you in reversa or leaping, you're gonna be inclined to grab harder. If you don't train yourself to let go, you're gonna get hurt, no matter what.

I also understand why they'd want to bring the powersafe to the US. It's an expensive, required clutch in the EU. If they have to make it, may as well sell as many machines as possible with it. They won't be selling it in Asia and they won't be selling it in Africa, so they gotta try and sell it here. If it was being put on us because we wanted it, why BCS America swallow the added cost the first year or so? I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped this clutch if the EU dropped the requirement...

TimberXX · Mar 1, 2012

How are people sure that Grillo will not conform to the EU standard.

BCSSHOP · Mar 1, 2012

This will conclude my input to this thread. I tried to present that the new hydraulic clutch system on the BCS tractors as another one of BCS's continuing efforts to improve their product. BCS identified the need for clutch and control improvements and this is how they chose to meet them. If some folks and competitors don't agree with their choices that is their choice. I, for one, am happy to represent BCS to my customers here in the Northeast.

I don't feel it is productive to get into discussions about what might happen given future requirements. BCS has stated their direction on the Italian website. Others who want to sell us equipment should do the same.

I will not get into a public discussion about business practices or ethics of other dealers. Anyone whose has a specific questions regarding the new clutch or BCS equipment please email me or start a new thread regarding their question. Now I have equipment to setup and deliver.
John Wilhelm

farmerboybill · Mar 2, 2012

BCSSHOP said:
This will conclude my input to this thread. I tried to present that the new hydraulic clutch system on the BCS tractors as another one of BCS's continuing efforts to improve their product. BCS identified the need for clutch and control improvements and this is how they chose to meet them. If some folks and competitors don't agree with their choices that is their choice. I, for one, am happy to represent BCS to my customers here in the Northeast.

I don't feel it is productive to get into discussions about what might happen given future requirements. BCS has stated their direction on the Italian website. Others who want to sell us equipment should do the same.

I will not get into a public discussion about business practices or ethics of other dealers. Anyone whose has a specific questions regarding the new clutch or BCS equipment please email me or start a new thread regarding their question. Now I have equipment to setup and deliver.
John Wilhelm

Hi John,

It's unfortunate that you have not found this thread productive. I have.

I will definitely continue to challenge decisions of companies that I think are not appropriately made - be that company BCS, BCS America, Grillo, John Deere, Walmart, Monsanto, whomever. The day I just lie down and accept what it is I'm told I need is the day I die.

Bill Muldoon

clytle374 · Mar 2, 2012

I was thinking about the clutch more today. Still hate the thought of loosing the transport gear, especially since its design is so simple.

But bringing the works to such a sudden stop has to be a little hard on stuff like the disk mover and flail mover. What really made me wonder was the chipper. Trying to bring that wheel to a sudden stop is kinda scarry. I mean as it is the diesel will lift one of the legs off the ground spinning it up to speed. Stopping it quickly could upset the tractor/chipper.

Cory

I agree with you bill on questioning things, especially things mandated my polticians.

Jens767 · May 15, 2012

Dear fellow BCS Friends

As this is my first contribution in this great forum, I will first of all like to say "thank you" to all of you for sharing your knowledge and experience with us new guys! I was planning not to mention anyone in particular, but now that I have read a great number of posts, I have to give an extra big applause to Bill (farmerboybill), Jean Marc Montigny (oldmech) and to John Wilhelm (BCSSHOP) for sharing your immense knowledge with us, and to take all the time necessary to write all your posts.

After 2 hard winters 2009/10 and 2010/11 with a lot of snow, I decided to spend some of my savings on a 2-wheel-tractor and some snow removal implements. After a lot of resurge, I finally decided to get a BCS 740 with a BCS Sweeper and a BERTA Snow thrower. Sadly we haven't had any snow since

According to the BCS catalog, the BCS 740 has 3 working gears in each direction. The BCS 740 seems to me to be the same tractor as the BCS 853 sold in USA, so I wondered if perhaps my 740 would in fact also have a 4th transport gear. My owner's manual covers both the 700 and the 800 series, and has a nice table, showing the driving speeds in each gear. Not surprisingly the 740 runs at the same speeds as the 853, indicating that it is in fact the same tractor, but the table even indicate, that the 740 will run 8.35 mph in 4th gear at full throttle!

Having read this thread, and the concerns from oldmech, clytle and others about losing the 4th high speed transport gear, I decided to do a little test.

Looking at the gear quadrant (see attached thumbnail), one could get the idea, that BCS simply cut an extra opening for the 4th gear on the 853, but didn't do so on the 740. So I removed the gear quadrant, and suddenly I also had a 4th gear with high transport speed :thumbsup:

There is a dangerous little catch though: the 4th gear will always run forward in the rear-PTO (tiller) mode, disregarding the position of the quick reverse control lever!!! This can come as a big surprise, when you use an implement in the front-PTO (mowing) mode, and you select the 4th gear. The tractor will suddenly drive backwards towards you, with more than 4 mph at half throttle surprise!

So to those of you who uses implement in the rear-PTO (tiller) mode on your 740 - or maybe even have an trailer or sulky - it might me an idea to change the gear quadrant to a 853 type, and you will get a 4th transport gear almost for free :thumbsup:

Best regards

Jens