PowerTrac BH Advice?

Spiffy · Apr 2, 2006

Perhaps I should have posted in the PowerTrac forum, but since 90% of my problem is likely the idiot user (me), thought I'd find more BH experts in construction.

Anyway, the frost is nearly out of the ground around here (soft, but a few ice crystals here and there), the surface is a little sloppy, so not perfect conditions, but I could not get the BH to bite hardly at all. Plenty of pressure, but it was tossing me around like a ragdoll with down pressure, or skidding the stabilizers if I tried peeling the soil. I did a little digging last year, and didn't have nearly the problems (actually, I did see them but only when trying to take too large of a bite).

A few facts: PT2445; 45HP articulated machine, about 4500lb; it has a 6 tooth 15inch bucket, 8ft digging depth (6 more comfortable).

Also, I didn't use the bucket to stabilize the front end; in retrospect, that would have help me from sliding, but since the machine is made to oscillate, I found last year it doesn't help much for sideways stability. The outriggers are vertical slides, so they are maybe 4ft apart.

OK here's a few theories that might take a little of the blame from opperator error:

Is 6 teeth too many on black compacted soil? Do I need to make my outriggers wider (I was thinking about welding rails to an 8 ft piece of channel iron so I could it slide over both existing outrigger "feet")? Do I need "front" stabizers attached to the front of the rear section (so I can get the entire weight of the machine, yet not have the oscillation come into play).

Or is 100% opperator error?

Thanks everyone!

Spiffy · Apr 3, 2006

Did I put this in the wrong forum? Attachments perhaps? If it is wrong, would one of the moderators move it.

Thanks!

Rip · Apr 3, 2006

Chad,

I'll toss a few ideas out on the table.... First of all the first few inches may have thawed out, but I would bet you are still looking at mostly frozen ground.

Secondly, I would set your front bucket edge at maximum dump angle and use down pressure to lift the front wheels off the ground at least a few inches. Use the rear stabilizers to lift the rear tires off the ground as well. This will give you the most stable and level platform.

If you start out with the machine as straight and level as possible I would not think the articulation would become much of a factor. One could make a couple of U channels like are used on loader arms for maintenence purposes to place over the steering cylinders to keep them from "drifting" while using the back hoe (tie a piece of strapping to each to loop thru the steering wheel so you do not try to drive off with them in place).

Oscillation may be a different issue. I read of a suggestion a while back to fabricate a thick steel U channel to slip over the link arm where it goes into the tunnel to limit its ability to move laterally (which allows the machine to oscillate in the first place). This would not make it completly firm, but would limit oscilation to only a few degrees. (Likewise a reminder ribbon or rope to the steering wheel.) This link movement becomes even more of an issue when using a front-mounted mini-hoe on any of the low-profile Power Tracs without any stabilizers and trying to apply any down pressure with the light front end.

As you probably know, frost can be driven deeper than one may think especially near end of winter with little or no snow cover and even more so on southern exposures. As far as back-hoes go, that 2445 is still on the light side in anything other than the most ideal conditions.

One can increase effective ripping force by removing several teeth so that all available down pressure is concentrated on just one or two teeth.

I'll still bet frost is your main problem at this time.... just wait a few more weeks (unless you just have to dig up a frozen water line right away!).

Good luck,

Rip

Komatsu PC-228USLC-3, PT-1845, NH TC-30, Kenworth T-800 w/Hiab 300-4/Jib 90-2 knuckleboom, and way too many attachments, trailers, etc

Spiffy · Apr 3, 2006

Thanks!

You're making perfect sense! Not a water line, but it was a grave for a horse; we wanted the ground thawed before the horse did, but I think I was a bit optimistic.

Locking the oscillation may help quite a bit; I think it'd be simpler than the "front rigger concept" I was thinking. Also, I need to make a long tilt arm; with the short arm, I can't tilt the bucket enough to bite during BH work.

Even if the frost was giving me fits, I bet using only the two outermost and two inner teeth would set me about right for the soil conditons around here.

tlbuser · Apr 4, 2006

( Chad,

I'll toss a few ideas out on the table.... First of all the first few inches may have thawed out, but I would bet you are still looking at mostly frozen ground.

Secondly, I would set your front bucket edge at maximum dump angle and use down pressure to lift the front wheels off the ground at least a few inches. Use the rear stabilizers to lift the rear tires off the ground as well. This will give you the most stable and level platform.

If you start out with the machine as straight and level as possible I would not think the articulation would become much of a factor. One could make a couple of U channels like are used on loader arms for maintenence purposes to place over the steering cylinders to keep them from "drifting" while using the back hoe (tie a piece of strapping to each to loop thru the steering wheel so you do not try to drive off with them in place).

Oscillation may be a different issue. I read of a suggestion a while back to fabricate a thick steel U channel to slip over the link arm where it goes into the tunnel to limit its ability to move laterally (which allows the machine to oscillate in the first place). This would not make it completly firm, but would limit oscilation to only a few degrees. (Likewise a reminder ribbon or rope to the steering wheel.) This link movement becomes even more of an issue when using a front-mounted mini-hoe on any of the low-profile Power Tracs without any stabilizers and trying to apply any down pressure with the light front end.

As you probably know, frost can be driven deeper than one may think especially near end of winter with little or no snow cover and even more so on southern exposures. As far as back-hoes go, that 2445 is still on the light side in anything other than the most ideal conditions.

One can increase effective ripping force by removing several teeth so that all available down pressure is concentrated on just one or two teeth.

I'll still bet frost is your main problem at this time.... just wait a few more weeks (unless you just have to dig up a frozen water line right away!).

Good luck,

Rip

Komatsu PC-228USLC-3, PT-1845, NH TC-30, Kenworth T-800 w/Hiab 300-4/Jib 90-2 knuckleboom, and way too many attachments, trailers, etc )

Probably a pretty realistic answer. On the articulation thing, wouldn't you be better off to have something "lock" the machine in place other than a cylinder stop? I was thinking more like a piece of barstock betwee the two halves, so that excess force wasn't exerted on the cylinder(s).
The other thing is not so much how many teeth but rather which type of teeth. Look here teeth at the 156 or 23 series. A "tiger tooth" (the pointy ones) are designed for frozen ground/rock.

Spiffy · Apr 4, 2006

Thanks for the link! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

I just have the stock welded flat teeth on it. Even for non-frozen ground, I might see some benifits from going sharper. Maybe I'll try grinding a taper on them, not quite to a point, but a long taper. Somehow, 9" (6 X 1.5" teeth on the 15" bucket) just seems like way too much tooth contact for a 2ton machine, especially when I can currenly only utilize perhaps half it's weight.

Actually seems like the oscialltion is giving much more grief than any cylinder play in the articulation, so I'll probably see if I can figure out how to combat that before the articulation (though I think that's the easier to combate using either cylinder stops or section "wedging").

Rip · Apr 4, 2006

Chad,

Sorry to hear about your horse.... hope it lived a good long life anyway. Those things never seem to happen in more opportune times. May have to get a neighbor to come over with a larger machine for your immediate needs.

A couple of good long-taper hardwood wedges may work well for eliminating the oscillation issue. You just want to have a way of removing them afterwards. You can probably leave them in while repositioning during a back-hoe session though.

Are your bucket teeth welded or bolted on? Bolted or pinned style would sure make it easier to temporarily alter the number depending on conditions.

JJ (on the PT forum) suggested a while back the possible use of a catagory 1 (or perhaps 2) 3ph top-link in place of the solid front bucket tilt link rod. This would allow for perhaps 6 inches or so of adjustment and may let your bucket edge be more vertical and dig in to stabilize the front of the machine. I would go with as heavy duty one as you can find as it may still not be as strong as the solid OEM rod. Would be pretty simple and cheap if it would work out right.

Bear in mind that your 2445 is still a pretty light weight machine compared to an average TLB and just may not be able to do much better under these condition. Don't break anything trying to do the impossible!

Good Luck!

Spiffy · Apr 4, 2006

Actually, it was the neighbor's horse and I was the one with the "bigger" machine; your thoughtfullness is greatly appreciated anyway, it did live a happy long life. He was able to borrow a 60HP skidsteer with palletforks and broke up the soil enough for me to scoop with the rock bucket, so we did get it taken care of; I should have added that, sorry about that.

However, I am quite happy to see all the great ideas!

Hardwood sounds like a great option for the oscillation.

It has welded teeth, but I'm sure tempted to try some of those pinned ones, especially so I could experiment with different shapes and have easy replacement too.

If I can lock the oscillation and sink the bucket edge, I think that will solve many problems - but you are right, I'm probably pushing it a bit harder than intended (I still remember old 30HP AG tractors that were expected to be lugged all day long).

Yes, I do recall JJ noting the toplink idea; far as my absent mind recalls: I didn't want to risk having a toplink break, so I put the toplink to the back of my head in favor a drilling new one.

Thanks again for all the great advice, Rip! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif Anymore ideas, I'm quite open! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rip · Apr 5, 2006

'Bout all for now I think..... will let you know if something else comes to mind though. Glad it was not your horse and that that you all got it taken care of in any case.

Rip

RegL · Apr 14, 2006

"Yes, I do recall JJ noting the toplink idea; far as my absent mind recalls: I didn't want to risk having a toplink break, so I put the toplink to the back of my head in favor a drilling new one."

I tried a top link with my 1430 and broke it within about 5 min.. I don't know if it was good quality or not. I have one of those 3pt draw bars ( I think thats what there called ) hanging around somewhere that I'm going to experiment with when I find it. It's one of those that hook up across the lift arms and have holes drilled their entire length.