Private school, Home schooling, etc.

RanchMan · Aug 16, 2002

Knucklehead -

I'll give it a try! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

What's the deal with this socialization objection, anyway?

Well.... You have the obvious things like being in plays or marching band (if you value those things). 'Course a kid could take private lessons to learn the trombone, but let's be honest, most of the "fun" comes from making music with others.

There's the "private" marching band option (e.g. <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.dci.org/about/>DCI</A>, etc.) or some other type of local thespian activity (community theater, anyone?), but I think it's fair to say those are far more difficult (and potentially expensive) to find outside of formal public/private education system. Just a couple of examples of "education" that I personally value.

On to the bigger point....

One of the "good things" about going to public school (in "my book" at least) is learning to deal with the realities of life (within reason of course).

Facing a daily onslaught of peers in public school forces kids to learn these "non-academic" lessons. i.e dealing with the schoolyard bully, addressing the situation when your "best buddy" wants you to help him cheat, confronting "diverse viewpoints" that contradict your own, etc. Call it "Trials of life."

Like it or not, we all have to deal with things that are less than pleasant or associate with individuals we would rather not, and while I completely agree we need to protect our kids, I can see where the lack of exposure to "adverse situations" in incremental stages will limit their ability to effectively deal with them. Obviously I am ***NOT*** advocating gang activity just to "Learn Johnny but Good!" or any other excessive behavior/activity. All I'm saying is that while "Kids need to be Kids," kids need to learn to deal with the realities of life as well, and don't subscribe to viewpoint of some that absolute naivete is something we should want kids to aspire too.

I'm not "bashing" home schooling - there are lots of benefits - just as there are some big drawbacks to public school - but, in the same breath, the "average Joe Doe Kiddo" who goes to public school isn't going to be a mal-adjusted, uneducated, immoral dolt either. Yea, he may have learned "true academics" at a reduced pace, but I think the exposure to additional opportunities and learning to deal with uncomfortable social situations make up for that.

Again, I'm "painting in broad strokes," so my points aren't directed toward any particular individual/case. There are going to be all types of kids within all "branches" of education types. I'm just saying, for me personally and in my opinion, a lot of other people, intended or not, a public education taught a lot more than a ABC's and 123's.

Oh, BTW, if it hadn't been for public school, I would have most likely never met my wife. Yea - I'm happy I went to Public School (grade, high, and college) /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

knucklehead · Aug 17, 2002

Rancho - if I rant a bit, it's not aimed at you, as I think you know. I just want to get that straight, right out of the "chute". O.K.? /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

I have only come to an understanding of my responsibility for my children in the last decade, since we have had them. But following the truths I have learned has gotten fantastic results, and my main hope is to encourage rather than discourage. Much of what I have said, and what I will say, is negative. But where there is bad stuff, it needs to be revealed, not concealed. And there is much bad stuff about.

I agree with where you are going with this in theory - where you speak of equipping our children for life. I would add that there should be some thought about how young the kids are thrown into "reality" (revisit my tomato example, above reply to Mosey). Plus, the reality of the public school system is not, IMHO, the reality of life. It's unbalanced in the collectivist direction. They are, as I'm sure you know, increasingly ignoring the teaching of right and wrong, personal responsibility, and reward for effort (all of these are the parents' responsibility anyway), in favor of blind acceptance of all ideas and behaviors in the name of the lie of "tolerance". Of course, the sole and glaring exception to this "tolerant" attitude is the teaching of biblical faith-based values, on which our society is founded and continues to function, despite the best efforts of revisionists and "intellectuals" to rationalize to the contrary. No, the "truth is relative" crowd will not have my children. I'm afraid I'm very intolerant of that. /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif This is God's world, my family, my country, and the relativists are the true outsiders, intolerants, and bigots. They will not continue unfettered, and I am training reinforcements.

Does anyone wonder why more adults and kids are committing heinous crimes with no apparent remorse? Think they are isolated cases? What about the accounting scandals which began under a scandalous president? As the lowest denominator sinks even lower, we all go down. As our leaders promote or allow real evil, the weakest among us follow with simple rationalizations and excuses. Road rage, stealing time and resources from work, cheating here and there (taxes, etc.). Do I think they're all bad in public school? Absolutely not....but between parents shirking off their problems on the schools, and the prevalent relativist thinking, which is hollow and ineffective in solving real problems due to it's complete rejection of biblical truth, I think there's enough trouble in life already without my asking for a whole lot more from the current school system. We're training strong, loving, others-centered leaders. They will speak against evil without hatred, they will help others without predjudice, and they will deal with life as it was meant by our Creator to be done. They will contend with the their enemies at the gate as it is so well put in Psalm 127:5 - full quote at the end.

I don't want to paint with too broad a brush, either; but it's appropriate here. I also went to the public schools, and met my wife first in college, and afterwards started dating when I took work in her home town. And by the way, I had to learn how to work, how to deal with difficult people, and how to keep my priorities straight after I left academia. Acedemia may a picture of a utopian socialist society, but not of mine.

And I hope by re-iterating the parental responsibility aspect, and mentioning the "managing you kids' education" idea of home-schooling, that I am being clear that I am not rejecting public education or its products in a wholesale fashion. Quite simply, you get out what you put in - personally put in. It is our belief, based on our faith and a good dose of common sense, that the current unbalanced, one-size fits all (they put the different ones on drugs..../w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif) state of public schools would increase our burden of training our kids to be good, contributing citizens. We need to start at home, and as our President recognized and stated during his campaign, this nation will be changed one heart at a time. We're raising heart changers, starting with our own hearts, and their own hearts. I want to be able to say, "follow me, boys". So far they've seen Dad nose dive in the mud a few times, and I'm sure they'll see many more examples. The giggling pricks the pride a bit..../w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

Psalm 127 "Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain. In vain you rise early and stay up late, toiling for food to eat - for he grants sleep to those he loves. Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children are a reward from him. Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are sons born in one's youth. Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. They will not be put to shame when they contend with their enemies in the gate." NIV (italics added, of course)

RanchMan · Aug 17, 2002

Knucklehead -

Please forgive the dissertation.... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I understand your intentions and aim, so no problem on the "offence" front. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I think we are getting pretty deep into philosophical "beliefs", which is always interesting, but seldom definitive. (plus I don't feel guilty since you requested feedback! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif)

Based on what I've picked up from past conversations, I have no doubt you have fine kids & good luck to date - I just have a different perspective on benefits of the PS system. Funny thing is that although we apparently come down on different sides of the matter, I agree with a lot of the principles you discuss.

should be some thought about how young the kids are thrown into "reality" 

Yup. Definitely a perspective question. In today’s society in general, I often see (IMO) the "extremes" - i.e. "too much" or "too little" depending on age. My concepts on "appropriate" are based on my experiences in life - e.g. how I was raised, when I "learned" things, etc. Do I believe I'm "right?" sure - just as you do, along with everyone else. While some things are absolute, some things are not.

For example, what if "grandma" dies. I've never agreed with the concept of telling a child that "She's just in a really deep sleep dear" as some parents tell really young children - but at the same time, how you explain it to a 3 yr. old vs. a 6 year old vs. a 10 yr. old all vary. Same thing with animals or food. No, "Spot" got hit by a car - he didn't run away. Yes, hamburger is made from cows - they are killed and cut up in to food - Yes - you are eating part of a cow, Johnny. Farmers grow food, not supermarkets....

I do disagree a bit on some of the points regarding the "reality of life" you state though. You've made your points about how public school introduces "false" groupings & the such, but I guess the way I see it, these "false" groupings, agree with them or not from a philosophical perspective, are "real life" and can not be called "unreal." Realities are just that - the way things "are" - not the way things "should be." PS helps establish common points of reference which will be used throughout one's life.

For example, although I may completely disagree with, say, a philosophical standpoint or religious practice that is common in the world today (for whatever reason), that doesn’t make it "less real." Ignoring it won't make it "go away" (that ostrich thing doesn't work). If I want to be a effective participant in today's society, (and not just "look out for myself"), like it or not I have to "deal with it." The "how" is what varies. If I haven't had to deal with it multiple times in the past (such as in school), I'll have less experience. The less experience, the less likely I'll be as effective as someone with more experience. Not an "absolute," just a probability. Call it a learning curve. After all, how many "Division Manager" types would you hire who had only managed a single employee in their past experiences? Could they be successful - yea, they might, but I wouldn't take that chance on them.

I think from reading my posts on other threads you've more than figured out some of my "philosophical" positions. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif I agree with your statement regarding the pitiful downfall of teaching morals in society and acceptance (meaning pseudo approval) of every possible behavior under the sun in the name of "tolerance." Yes, I agree, this is BAD. Some things are "black & white" regarding "right & wrong" and while I personally may be labeled "intolerant" for refusing to accept (again, pseudo approve) them, it doesn't mean I don't accept the fact they exist. If I choose to participate in society, even though I may dislike it, I must deal with others who have beliefs/behaviors that are different than mine.

I may not socialize with, say someone at work "after hours" because I believe they are conducting their personal life in way I disagree with (choose your poison on subject - doesn't really matter for the point I'm trying to make.) Now, like it or not, I do have to work with them effectively in the business environment - that's what is expected of me, and what I expect of those who report to me as well.

We aren’t running some type of “social experiment” - we’re running a business. “You don’t like Bob? What did he do? Miss his deadline? Report things incorrectly? - what? He belongs to that club on the other side of town?!?! Why are you wasting my time with this ??? I DON’T CARE! If he’s doing his job and isn’t bugging you to join that club, it has no place here! SUCK IT UP AND DEAL WITH IT! Get out of my office!!!” That's the "reality of life." (Just to note, it wouldn’t matter to me if “that club” was a “good club” or a “bad club” - the principle is what is at issue, not the specifics of the club <unless it is something like a “How to Cheat Your Company by Committing Fraud” or something like that.>

and I am training reinforcements. 

I understand - and in principle, agree that too much "junk" has been promoted under the guise of "Political Correctness." I guess what I'm saying though is that I believe effective "training" requires experience in "dealing with the enemy." Just because one of the "relativists" has "control" of someone's child for a few hours a day doesn't necessarily undo all the ethical & moral beliefs the parent instills. (this assumes the parent is involved.) Quite the contrary, I think it helps to reinforce those beliefs the parent proclaims.

How? Well, choose a war - any war. How many soldiers are trained with NO UNDERSTANDING of the enemy's tactics? The enemy's weapons? The enemy's motivations? Does the military only "train" by marching & spouting regs? - Nope - military training involves combat simulation of varying types. Training sharpens the mind. But as good as "simulation" is, it is no replacement for real combat experience. Think of it this way, if you were going in to battle, which group of soldiers would you choose to have by your side? A) A bunch of guys gathered up at random, B) a bunch of recruits just out of boot camp, or c) guys who have already gone through 1 tour of duty?

Yes, kids are impressionable, but I believe PS is basically a combination of "boot camp" and "combat experience" for later life. Overall it is a relatively safe environment to debate and experiment with various tactics of dealing with issues. (yes, anything can be taken to the proverbial extreme, but I don't see that as applicable to this point). Is over-exposure to adverse "things" possible? Yes, and that's when parents should step in and say "No Sir! That's going TOO far!!!"

prevalent relativist thinking, which is hollow and ineffective in solving real problems due to it's complete rejection of biblical truth

/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Well, I don't think ALL "relativist" thinking is "bad & evil" - some has an appropriate place, some does not. Yes - the "relativist thinking" of "2 + 2 DOES = 5" for "Johnny" because "we" have to worry about "Johnny's" self esteem. Yea - that is "bad & wrong." Choosing a 25HP tractor over a 30HP tractor because of one's perspective on what is "relatively appropriate" for the circumstances? Well, that's OK and 2 people, operating on the same grounds and doing the same tasks may have different priorities that make them BOTH "right" (maybe one is values maneuverability where one values traction, etc.) Some things are black & white, but some subjects do come in shades of are gray too.

And by the way, I had to learn how to work, how to deal with difficult people, and how to keep my priorities straight after I left academia

Ok, so you weren't an "effective student" in college due to "distractions" you cited and you may have "figured it out" after "you left academia." I believe you - but - I'm not sure I agree with your implication that you "didn't learn anything" from your less than ideal experiences. Although you didn't "implement" your priorities until after school, it doesn't follow that everyone, or even the majority of people, follow that same model. Additionally, I'm not sure you can prove that you didn't "learn" anything from your experiences during your time "in academia" that helped you be more effective once you left. (e.g. the "bad" room mate, etc.)

You consistently come across as a well thought, moal/ethical individual. So, to swing the tables a bit, do you believe if you had NOT gone to PS you would have higher morals & ethics? Do you believe your experiences growing up while going to PS have permanently harmed you and prevented you from achieving your fullest potential? Do you think you believe PS hurt or helped your debating skills? To boil it down, taking all the +’s and all the -‘s in to account, it comes down to this: If you could erase history and “do it all over” - would you trade your life experiences in PS and do you believe that would make you a “better” person overall?

re-iterating the parental responsibility aspect, and mentioning the "managing you kids' education" idea of home-schooling, that I am being clear that I am not rejecting public education or its products in a wholesale fashion.

I think that was good to reiterate. As said earlier, ANY method of teaching can lead down the "wrong path" - like you said, it all depends on what one "personally put in." All I'm saying is that, again, while there are some obvious benefits of home schooling, I personally still see what I believe are some drawbacks in other areas. I don't believe that either is perfect.

Although there could be some circumstances I could think of when I would choose to home school over public (or if private was unavailable), for me, and in the vast majority of circumstances, even with all the problems & issues, I personally see more checks in the "win column" when it comes to sending kids to PS.

---------
One *quick* sidebar - again, although we disagree (on this subject /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif), I find this "discussion" FAR more pleasant than some others. I think we've maintained a civil and more "effective" discussion - I wish more "controversial" subjects on TBN could be approached in this manner!!! I'm glad we are both on each other's "good side" - ESPECIALLY since the subject of offspring is inherently dangerous due the strong emotions involved. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

knucklehead · Aug 18, 2002

Whadaya mean, 25 hp tractors are O.K.? Guess I can't get anywhere with you - /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

I woke up thinking I should add a little something on to this thread; and here you are doing it for me. Thank you! I wrote that sort of with you in mind, (but not aimed at you), knowing we were birds of a political feather. Remember when we got into some of the firearms issues? It seemed some thought all we wanted to do was shoot something! Well, same here. I tried to conserve words - believe it or not! All that condensed information takes on a bit of a fury - then I added a few strong statements about my beliefs, and political (stemming from beliefs) things, and mixed some personal stuff with it. You recognized that - thank you, again!.

Anyway, I was thinking that this thread may generate negative feelings with the strong talk. That's really more the responsibility of the reader, but partially mine, too. Imagine what would happen if we started a thread and talked about appropriate bullet design for self defense - wound cavity, penetration, nerve overload, tissue damage, and one shot kills /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif - do you hunger to kill? Me, neither. How would we get portrayed? /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif Remember how the Black Talon bullets caused such a din among the surrender crowd?

We have friends that have lovely children in PS. I talk about management of education, using the public school as a subcontractor, when trying to encourage people who feel unable to home school (if you can raise a kid, you can homeschool). Then I call PS a concentration camp /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif. Don't we all get a little passionate about our kids?

Oh, regarding the issue at hand - exposure/training for getting along with others - good point using the enemy recognition and tactical examples. At the risk of sounding like we treat all others who are not like us as enemies - which we don't - we do that. Part of including biblical truths in acedemic education and life-teaching includes recognizing and dealing with others (turn the other cheek, love your enemies, etc.), which as you know was the central theme God as Jesus Christ espoused while on earth. I do think that is handled poorly at best by individuals or institutions who from the outset deny either the existence of or the study of our Creator. I'd like to write that twice. And underline it, bold and in italics.

I think the very thing you are concerned with should be part of a good parental upbringing. I'm a broken record with the parental responsibility thing, but it's the underlying problem - the schools are as they are because we have let them lead, and they can't. Keep in mind that not being in PS does not mean reduced access to others. I wonder if that may be the concern? And think about crowd dynamics - the real life encounters are not going to be fleeting and in small "bites", like a soccer game, concert, or PS - they are going to be one-on-one, and more in-depth (especially that person at work). The more personal, long term relationship is what we emphasize - and teach them to let the small, short term stuff "roll off their backs". Remember "Sticks and stones...."? Notice the PS has directly taught it as wrong that as part of "tolerance"?

Thanks a third time for the understanding reply, my friend.

RanchMan · Aug 18, 2002

Whadaya mean, 25 hp tractors are O.K.? 

Well - not really, that's why I bought a 40 hp. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

I tried to conserve words - believe it or not!

Oh I believe it! To say I'm verbose is an understatement - I can certainly see when there's a "lot to get out" how it takes a lot of words! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

...How would we get portrayed? Remember how the Black Talon...

Absolutely! Goes back to the whole thing about how people let their emotions enter in to the equation and somehow that "makes" a fact. /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif Black Talon (or whatever projectile being discussed for that matter) are "evil" because they can KILL and can do it in an effective manner! (/w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif Oh brother, another "safe" bullet debate... )

Don't we all get a little passionate about our kids? 

Absolutely! (again) That's why I'm so pleased that this thread, an admittedly sensitive issue (i.e. offspring) has remained so civilized even though there are differences of opinion! Course I guess the credit should go the participants..../w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

At the risk of sounding like we treat all others who are not like us as enemies - which we don't

No, no. Didn't mean to imply you did - sorry if it came across that way. Was just referring to your "tongue in cheek" way of saying how you were "preparing reinforcements." I understood your point of basically saying you are "preparing them to fight the good fight" so to speak, just took your statement to the "next level" with my allegory.

I'm a broken record with the parental responsibility thing, but it's the underlying problem

Abso....... I need to find another word... er... "I agree unequivocally!" Naw - that sounds to "ivory tower-ish." Suffice to say, I think that is the heart of the matter, and goes back to what we were both saying in that if the parent takes an interest in their child’s development, "good things" will happen.

Keep in mind that not being in PS does not mean reduced access to others. I wonder if that may be the concern? 

Ahhh. Yes, this is the concern I was/am trying to raise. Although your particular situation may/may not reflect the "typical" home school situation, I just find it hard to believe that a child who spends a large portion of the day at home being taught by a parent will have the same exposure level to other people/ideas/situations as a child in public school. I freely admit I have no statistical evidence to "pull from my back pocket" on this one, but it seems logically correct.

I'm not saying that kids that are home schooled don't have friends or are "removed from society" per se. I see no reason why they couldn't participate in little league, sing in the church choir, be in some other "club" of some type (i.e. Boy Scouts), etc. I'm just saying that PS offers opportunities that home school simply never could. Not an insult, just a fact.

Some of these "opportunities" could be considered "bad things" with "good lessons" - (e.g. the friend wanting to cheat off you - I mean, if you're in a "class by yourself", who is going to try and get you to tell them the answers???, etc.). Others, while they may or may not add to the academic "education" of a child, none the less have "value" (at least in my book) (e.g. playing in the marching band, the experience of going to "Senior Prom", the reward of competition <making the tennis/football/golf/basketball/whatever... team.>, etc.)

Again, some of these things could be emulated to a degree (don't recall seeing a high-school age football "league" round these parts - though I suppose they could be out there. /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif). That being said, emulation isn't equivalent to replication, and quite simply, but I don't think some of the situations/activities, or the experiences directly associated with them, can truly be duplicated outside of a formal school setting (public or private).

real life encounters are not going to be fleeting and in small "bites", like a soccer game, concert, or PS - they are going to be one-on-one, and more in-depth (especially that person at work). 

/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Well, I don't necessarily concur with your axiom. Sure, some situations within PS are indeed "fleeting," but a lot are not. (Remember the annoying jerk in XYZ class who always was opening his mouth at the wrong time? Or what about the coach who made you his "special project?" 'Course then there was the time when a "class project" was due and somehow you had to figure out how to get the thing done well in spite of having both the obnoxious "brainiac" and "village idiot" in your group. Etc., etc....)

Yea, the single concert a kid performs is "fleeting" (albeit the experience of performing for a crowd is "valuable" I believe), but what wasn't "fleeting" was the hours and hours of practice he put in, both by himself and in varying size groups (ranging from a single "buddy", to the entire trumpet section, to the entire brass section, to the entire band). That time had value that went far beyond the "notes" as (e.g. methodology, dealing with those less skilled than he, gratification of success when something was played correctly, etc.) - Yes, those experiences "taught" him something. (I'm just picking on the band/music theme here, but the principle applies just as much to the football team, cheerleading squad, theater club, etc.)

The more personal, long term relationship is what we emphasize - and teach them to let the small, short term stuff "roll off their backs". 

I completely understand - and believe like you do - "Don't sweat the small stuff." No arguments on this aspect.

Believe it or not, I really do understand where you are coming from, and appreciate you not taking my views as "attacks" on the method of education you, as a parent, believe is the best for your child in your particular situation. I can respect your decision, and since I have no idea on the specifics of that particular situation, can honestly say I do not know which method I would choose if placed within it.

Again, we are really debating the merits/drawbacks in general, not a particular party's circumstance. For me at least, I believe, in general, that the positives that come from a public school environment outweigh the negatives, ergo my selection on what is "best" (i.e. enrolment in PS) is different than yours.

Uh oh! Looks like we're being tolerant of one another!!! /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

knucklehead · Aug 18, 2002

Remember the annoying jerk in XYZ class who always was opening his mouth at the wrong time? - Uh, that mighta been me. I was voted class clown.

Or what about the coach who made you his "special project?"
Oddly, I started to write something about that earlier, but decided it wasn't pertinent. I sorta included it in the comment about persons in authority.

I guess we'll have to trust those parents that feel strongly enough to keep their kids home to be concerned enough to give them a well-rounded education. I agree that this has been very civil - at the risk of sounding like those extremely polite little Chip n' Dale chipmunks - not those Chippendale guys.

Oh, YUK, Ranchman in a G string./w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

Youare · Aug 18, 2002

We raised three boys who are now in their twenties. We tried the local elementary school with our first two for a couple of years. We decided it would be a way to be involved with the community.

We wondered what we were going to do when our oldest in second grade entered into a debate with his teacher concerning the subject of eveloution vs. creation. He came home and told us all the details of their discussion as only an 8 year old can, he was always a bit out spoken.

At this point my wife home schooled our now three boys for two years. A Christain school in the area needed teachers and asked my wife to help out. She has worked a two different Christian schools all thru our children's education and continues to teach in the high school grades.

Our oldest son graduated from Christian school, our second son decided he wanted to go to the local high school for his last three years, the youngest one decided he didn't want to study at home or at a Christian school. After a year of trying to get him to do the work, an he turned 16 we let him see how much he needed an education and the diploma to prove it.

Eventually he admitted he need to get his high school diploma and we inrolled him in a four year program offer by Harcourt formerly ICS. He completed all the work to their standards and now has his diploma.

Our oldest son decided to enroll in college last fall at 25, he finally knew what he wanted to do, or not do. He starts his second year this September and will have enough credits to get an associates degree after the first semester. He has made the Dean's list and has a 3.7 GPA.

I said all that to make the point that home school and Christan school kids can hold their own against publicly schooled kids. Children in public schools can and do get good educations too.

The biggest difference in the sucessful outcome of a child's education is first how much the parents get involed in the process and secondly how motivated the child is to learn. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink, some times a little salt will help.

There are many good teachers in both public and private schools, the teachers are not the problem. "Society", who ever they are, has feed many of our children some bad head stuff. Don't teach by rote, don't wound their self-esteem, don't administer correction when necessary.

Kids know they have more rights today than the teachers do and this problem is not limited to public schools my wife sees it in the Christian school too. More money for public education is not the answer. Sure Christain school teachers are paid less than public school teachers but on the average Christian schooled kids test higher than publicly schooled kids do.

Bottom line is parents getting involved with their kids education, that is why home schooling is becoming popular. Some kids bloom a little later in their childhood, home schooling can help with that. Many kids with learning disabilities got that way because of the home situation or lack of one. Many kids with learning disabilities have been helped more through home schooling than the public school coding processes which tells them they will never learn so why try.

There is too much more to say, but that's enough. Good subject and encouraging responces.

Randy

Will · Aug 19, 2002

Assuming they choose college, which we don't think may be the value it's cracked up to be; which is yet another topic for discussion.There's plenty of <A target="_blank" HREF=http://govinfo.library.orst.edu/earn-stateis.html> data</A> available on the monetary value of a bachelor's degree compared to a high school degree. For instance, in 1989, males of comparable age earned about 50% more per year if they had a bachelor's degree than if they just had a high school degree.

Trev · Aug 19, 2002

Wing,

I've always had mixed feelings about home schooling. On the one hand, I question the extent of my own knowledge. I mean, when a kid asks me why the sky is blue, I mumble something about hydrogen molecules in the atmosphere tending to preferentially reflect light in the bluish range of the spectrum back and forth while transmitting or absorbing most of the other frequencies. This may or may not be correct /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif but it's certainly not a very helpful explanation. Of course I could look up the correct answer, and teach the kids to do so, but I wonder if teachers aren't better equipped to do this? This is what their training was in, I presume.

On the other hand, I once had someone ask me to proof-read her Masters Thesis.. she was going for a Masters in Education.. and she had a classic sentence in there; something like "While it's true that blah-blah-blah, and blah-blah-blah." I blinked and read it again. Yep.. this woman got her Masters in Education and she couldn't even write coherently! (And the scariest part is that over the years I've found that most people write like they think.)

Sorry to ramble.. just haven't come to closure on this yet. I guess my central thesis here is the question of whether the average parent is capable of teaching math, science, literature, history, geography, and so on. I'm pretty sure I'm not. Whether the typical teacher is better at this remains unclear to me. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Bob

RanchMan · Aug 19, 2002

Knucklehead -

Good conversation so far! I PROMISE not to put on any “exotic costumes!” /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

On to the discussion!

I suppose this is one of those areas where we both believe there are examples of which both methods will work, but what we perceive as "valuable life experiences" differ. I apparently see a great deal more value in the activities/circumstances PS brings than you do, hence why we differ in our choices.

That part aside, I am very curious about your statement of We are considering home-based college, as not only do the institutions demand huge sums for increasingly deteriorating educational quality

/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Not sure I concur on that statement. Looking at the college level, depending on the institution, I don't believe there has been a mass degradation in the quality of education in most areas. Sure, there are the vocal college profs that espouse a bunch of PC nonsense, but that in itself doesn't mean that all, or even a majority of the profs/classes reflect this trend. A lot of professors have been teaching for many years - I simply don't believe that the majority of them simply stop teaching "well & properly."

As a matter of fact, entrance examination score requirements for admission have been steadily rising (at least in the schools I pay attention to). One could make the argument this is because the SAT, etc. is getting "easier" - but even if that were the case, it shows the institutions are taking this aspect in to account at worst. Yes, there are going to be some exceptions to this statement - usually done in the name of PC by some institutions, but again, I think that the "baby is being thrown out with the bath water" based on your statement.

As to the financial aspect - not every school takes the proverbial "billions and billions" to attend - hence public universities. Yes, you can still get a quality education at a public university at a "bargain" price.

Now, no, it isn't free - but there are ways to pay for it. Scholarships, student loans, and yes, heaven forbid - WORK. (BTW, I used all 3 of these to pay for my schooling, with 0 impact on my parents, so I refuse to believe "It can't be done!" - Balderdash! Too many kids have done it - I'm not unique in that aspect. Additionally, it can be done without making the child/student in to some type of zombie who is so busy he has no time between work or school.)

Both Will & Bob make some good additional points. First, yes, there is factual evidence, that on the whole, the more formal education one has, the higher their income. Doesn't mean a HS dropout can't become a millionaire, it just means his chances are substantially reduced. Many companies hire new entry level employees straight out of college and refuse to even consider those without a formal college education (and even go as far as to only hire from specific institutions.) Is this "right?" Maybe - Maybe not. Doesn't matter though - that is the fact, and by excluding a degree from a formal institution (even if you in your heart believe it isn't worth the paper it is written on), the reality is that there will be "doors locked shut" for that person. Be it in the private sector or public (e.g. doctor, engineer, military officer, lawyer, veterinarian, etc. all require formal education from an accredited school(s). ) Maybe those "doors" don't "matter" to the parent, but do they matter to the child? (go <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocoiab.htm#A>Here</A> to see what jobs/professions require.)

Then there is the whole point Bob was making - which was essentially division of labor streamlines efficiency and increases the baseline standard of knowledge. I don't care how "smart" the "gifted" home school "professor" may be, it is simply not possible for them to be an "expert" in all the areas that a student studies in college.

I'm not bashing the intelligence of the "home school professor" - I'm just saying nobody can be that good - even the professors that teach in college - meaning that you would never expect "Joe Blow" engineering professor to also teach biology, psychology, etc. with the same skill as engineering. My father is a brilliant person, very smart, very well thought out - but there is no way he would have been able to effectively teach me in some of the classes I took in college. It isn't a dig on his intelligence (far from it), it is just going back to the fact "nobody knows everything."

Yes, there appears to have been a "trend" toward socialist ideals in some schools - but I'd make the argument that a lot of those concepts have been there for a LONG time (the 60's anyone?) and it is not the "norm" for all schools or professors.

Forgetting the entire "socialization" topic we had discussed earlier, I think there is plenty of evidence that not going to a formal institution of higher learning can severely limit an individual. It doesn't mean they couldn't be "happy" or a "good person" without going to school - far from it - but denying the increased potential (income/opportunities) or the value of learning from "experts" in their field just doesn't "wash" with me.