Private school, Home schooling, etc.

   / Private school, Home schooling, etc. #31  
While I didn't homeschool my kids I'm certainly a big fan of homeschooling. I was very disappointed today to learn that California is requiring home schoolers to be certified teachers. Leave it to the left coast. /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif
 
   / Private school, Home schooling, etc.
  • Thread Starter
#32  
Gary - you first, then Ranchman

My knee jerk reaction is follow the money - you'll find the NEA behind it. My slightly more well thought out reaction is it is an unfortunate severe restriction placed on the larger population due to some unbalanced information about a relative few cases of bad homeschooling results. It's hard not to focus on the negative; we're seeing it on this thread - me with the government schools (to borrow Rush's term) and others with fears of irresponsible parents. Both are real, neither are probably to the extent we portray.

Bottom line is that it is the parents' responsibility to raise their kids, and it just got easier for the irresponsible ones to mentally and physically shirk their duties, and harder for the responsible ones to shoulder theirs.
 
   / Private school, Home schooling, etc.
  • Thread Starter
#33  
Oh, Ranchman, I'm sorry! I shoulda warned you - I'm a <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Luddite>Luddite</A> Engineer, a conservative hippie, and a tree hugging woodcutter. /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

I am in the process of penning a stellar philosophical response /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif, but it has taken 90 minutes so far, and my lovely wife, Proverbs 31 woman that she is, needs to get me going. Suffice it to say that my thoughts stem from one perspective, and that is my faith. I recognize the difficulty in implementing those ideals in the real world, but also the importance of teaching them to my kids. My boys, therefore, will be trained to know the truth, but acknowledge reality. It is important to know the truth, and to live in reality without adapting the dominant philosophies as our own. That is my major problem with the current matrix of education, and of business thinking: Wrong dominant philosophy. Mine starts with a cross, as you probably already know, and the understanding that one day, everyone will acknowledge the same truth.

Time be short, and eternity be long. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I guess that pretty much sums it up. I had a good rant going, though.
 
   / Private school, Home schooling, etc. #34  
knucklehead-

Sorry its taken so long to respond, but that's what happens when you drive 2100 miles in 3 days....(a whole other story.../w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif)

Anywho....

<font color=blue>Oh, Ranchman, I'm sorry! I shoulda warned you - I'm a Luddite Engineer, a conservative hippie, and a tree hugging woodcutter.</font color=blue>

Ahhh. I think I understand! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Well, kindof /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif. For me (as you’ve probably noticed /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif), consistency in discussion is something I value pretty highly. Although your explanation is certainly farcical, it wasn’t quite as analytic as I had hoped it would be. Oh well, no matter...

I think (for the most) we probably approach a lot of things in life the same way. That being said, I guess we look at a few things differently. I too started a long response (big surprise! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif) but I think we are probably both speaking to "brick walls" with regards to this subject.

Where you see a glass "half empty" when it comes to public education, I see one "half full." Treading lightly in the theological arena is always difficult, but suffice to say that I do not have the same difficulties in reconciling faith/religion and the business/secular world as you do. (e.g. "truth" vs. "reality") I believe someone can be a learned individual educated in the public school system, exposed to those with different ideas/concepts, loose their gullibility/naivete, become successful in the business world, and still be a Godly & Christian person. I think in your heart you probably believe the same, but your posts have seemed to come across a bit more asperse.

Again, the whole theological arena is fraught with peril, so I think we are basically at a stalemate. I will say that this has been an interesting thread, though. Hopefully others out "there" have seen both sides of the argument discussed, if not to their logical conclusions (again, because I'm not "going there" with regards to theology), to the point where they took away something useful.

Kindof funny how we went from home schooling +’s & -‘s to how the business world operates to a religious context. Ahhh, what a long strange road it has been!
 
   / Private school, Home schooling, etc.
  • Thread Starter
#35  
Ranchman - here's my original tome I started before I got dragged away by the earlobe to do more productive things than talk to my tractor girlfriends. I've had time to think. I just saw your response of the 27th, which I evidently missed, so I decided I might reply with this original post (saved on Wordpad) to sorta wrap things up, maybe. You mentioned the perils of getting into religion - I would agree, if our mutual definitions are the same /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif - including sentimentality, insipid dogmatic beliefs, and superficial adherence to liturgies loosely based on Godly truths but corrupted by men (It's what ticked off Christ - no other earthly injustice, including his own arrest, trial, and execution whipped him into anger - the religious practices of the day did, however!). I'm gonna talk about faith - the acceptance of things we can't see or touch; the acceptance of an intellect higher and more perfect than ours. I offer it as the reason for some of my apparent contradictions, and not as an attempt to evangelize anyone, although I would point out the importance of obtaining a clear understanding of the claims of Christ in the New Testament, and making an informed decision as to one's personal response to those claims. Most people I know get their taste of God from observing other people, which is a terrible mistake, as I believe my definition of religion illuminates. I would add that I believe this faith is also what is in our current President's heart, and may also help explain some of the more interesting responses he makes, which superficially appear to be less agressive than we would like, from a conservative stance.

There is a constant tension of different ideas going on in my head (most of our heads, I believe), quieted only (in the past) by substance abuse or (currently) hard physical or mental work. I had a whole paragraph of examples here, but suffice it to say that the left and right halves of my brain are at war. If you check the presets on my car radio, you will find NPR, conservative talk radio, a couple local christian music and preaching stations, country, classical, and hard rock. I can listen to both AC/DC and radio preachers expound about the Highway to Hell. I believe I have equally sampled most worldy philosophies /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif.

Partly because of age (and maturity, I hope /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif), and partly because of growth in my faith, I am shaping and refining some of my ideas. I want balance....but not at the expense of compromising the truth. My favorite mortal people include John the Baptist, the Apostle Paul, Martin Luther (Mr. Luther, my hero, who incurred the full wrath of the church with his outspoken promotion of faith as the only way to salvation, and who also said that beer is proof that God loves us and wants is to be happy), as well as contemporaries like and <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.tednugent.com/news/10042001.shtml>Ted Nugent (/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif). I am attracted to outspoken personalites, but I despise bankrupt psuedo intellectual thinking, rationalization, and purely emotionally driven responses. Truth is the issue, and it therefore requires acknowledgement of our origins and Creator at the end of the philisophical road, I firmly believe. I find that acknowledgment pretty much absent in most "liberal" viewpoints, which superficially espouse ideas like free thought and acceptance of differences but deny God's ongoing sovereignty in our lives, and instead elevate human intellectualism to the level of deity. That always leads to depravity, because as smart as we humans may be, we are fallible and blind to our own faults at the same time. Hundreds of examples exist from the beginning of time, and quite a load of them are documented in the Old Testament. Most people (religious people/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif) see those OT men and women as saints, but I believe God in His perfect wisdom has portrayed both the value of obedience and the pitfalls of disobedience in the same persons, over and over again. Read about any of them; they are too numerous to list.

What the heck does all that brain halves and Old Testament stuff mean? As I said in the first paragraph, it explains why I might apparently contradict myself on a subject. My opinions are subject to one thing: the ultimate active sovereignty of God, and the importance of the individual. For instance, and pertinent to our dicussion: business does not exist to make people happy, but happy workers are more productive. I despise welfare as a breeding ground of dependence, yet I think the ultimate good is to help people in need. I want my kids to be in the real world, yet I carefully keep them at home for education. You are right on the button; I want a Utopian Society - it's called Heaven. Nothing of the sort can be achieved on earth as long as we follow our own thinking. We have an instruction manual, or perhaps more correctly, a battle plan, called the Bible, to guide us. It says almost nothing about how to dominate or "win" externally, and concentrates on internal change and spiritual realignment with our Creator. Personally, I have not been more content and competent as an individual than since I started submitting my will to the Plan.

You will find that the focus of the New Testament, Jesus Christ, said next to nothing negative to or about individuals, but vented his full fury against institutions. Hence my attitude toward them, especially those to which we have entrusted our precious young minds (parental responsibility not withstanding). Remove the worth of the individual from our thinking, and you end up "not needing" a God or a Saviour. You also end up rounding up people and marching them into concentration camps every once in a while, or killing them before they are born at later and later dates (think about the next step past partial birth abortion: infanticide. PB abortion is already infanticide, really). There are practical as well as philosphical reasons for prominently maintaining the scriptural idea of the worth of the individual, whether one wants to admit there is a God who is personally interested in us as individuals, or not. This fits really well into the next thing I wanted to say. Oh, how cool that is when things work out that way!

Interestingly, it also this very idea of the worth of the individual in God's eyes, and His ongoing sovereignty and involvment in the affairs of men, that drove the creation of our founding documents, much to the consternation of some "thinkers" of today. The attack on our history, our founders, and the documents they created, is therefore an attack on God's plan in my mind. The attack includes a re-education process. Guess what I think the primary means of delivering that re-education message is today? From a human perspective, this re-education and its dire effects is a rather well documented consequence of our Godless perspective. In a few generations after every nation turns its back on God, and therefore elevates the mind of man, there arises a despicable leader that ultimately commits acts of genocide on the very population that leader was given power to lead. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely.

So, when I rant about schools, I am not peeking around corners looking for Boogie Men so much as I am reminding myself and alerting whomever choses to listen with honest ears that those institutions we choose to entrust our precious children to are asleep at the wheel, philosophically, by virtue of their choice to kick God out of school. Study history, then look (not so far) down the road at America, and imagine what it would be like as we continue to follow our own hearts and ignore Godly wisdom. Ultimately, therefore, being completely steeped in modern society at a young age, or fitting into a certain employer's profile is very much secondary to understanding how the world works from our Creator's perspective, and what happens when the hearts of men seek to rule over the sovereignty of Godly truths. Understanding this more completely prepares young people to properly meet every iteration of society they encounter, as men's hearts have not changed since the dawn of time.

As a bonus, however (I would call it a blessing for obedience), I have found that practicing my faith results in the cultivation of traits and habits, both work-oriented and people oriented, that make one a competent employee. And citizen. And husband. And father. All of which, by the way, are requirements placed on men by God and clearly set out in the scripture. I'm not perfect by a long shot, but I am attempting to follow a perfect plan. History shows all other ideas hatched in the mind of man to be bankrupt in theory and in practice, and ultimately harmful to mankind.

There it is, Ranchman. The whole perspective, as best as my tired, light-wiring and sheetrocking-fatigued fingers can manage. And I stayed away from religion. /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif
 
   / Private school, Home schooling, etc. #36  
Kuncklehead -

I appreciate the time you put in to your response, and again, since we are both "hitting a barrier" with regards to "convincing" one another, I think we are probably coming to a "natural" conclusion in this thread.

<font color=blue>You mentioned the perils of getting into religion - I would agree, if our mutual definitions are the same - </font color=blue>

I understand where you are differentiating "religion" and "faith." However, for the purposes of this discussion, I believe we are using different definitions. Websters has many definitions for both words, however, just to be clear, the definition of "religion" I was using was inclusive of "faith" and not associated with dogma as the definition you were using seemed to be.

So, again, although I understand "where you are coming from" and respect your ability to describe your beliefs, I think it is an inherently dangerous for me to make a bunch of pointed & specific comments as to your posts at this point. That being said, I will say go ahead and make a few general comments.

Although I tend to agree many of your theological statements, I do not concur with all of them. (I won’t cite which ones.) The point of view you expressed certainly helps me understand the "why" as to your actions, but since I do not concur with all of the points, I reach a different conclusion. We both have additional "points of evidence" we could present to one another to reflect our beliefs. Could we do this and keep the thread running? Yes. Should we take this "next step?" In my opinion, an emphatic No.

I understand your desire for “balance” and how you believe you have found it in your listening to/believing in a "variety" of views (often at polar opposites) to achieve it. I have not found this practice a necessary step for the reconciliation of secular activities amongst themselves, nor as a necessary step to reconcile secular activities and spiritual life.

I understand your priorities in "life" (including after-life) and understand you are conducting yourself in such a way to do what you believe are the "right things" for you and your family. I can respect that.

However, please understand that many of those (such as myself) who disagree on some of your points do not "care" for their children ANY LESS nor do they believe in their heart & mind that they are somehow condemning their children (or themselves) to everlasting damnation. Does merely having "one's heart" say it's "right" make it so? Absolutely not. (gets in to the whole "feeling thing" again.) But Judgement? I'll leave the judgement to "someone" else as I do not believe I am qualified nor entitled to make such judgements in this arena.

Again, I've already tip-toed FAR to close to the theological domain than I care to in such an environment, so I'll have to abstain from going further with regards to dealing with the theological aspects. I think with regards to the initial topic of yes/no to sending one's children to public school, we have both made our cases. I feel comfortable with what I believe are the consistencies in my arguments/points, hopefully you feel good about how you portrayed your side as well.

I have a better understanding of “where you are coming from” - hopefully you now have a better understanding of the same for me.

***
BTW - my wife and I went to a High School football game Friday night. Watched the game, conversed with town-folk, and listened to nice music. Lots of good, clean, wholesome fun, with a variety of "lessons" along the way for kids to boot. Cheerleaders invigorated the crowd, an ROTC kid directed us to our seats, the band played “their hearts out” and the football players worked hard as a team to achieve the goal. (Yes, they won.) Necessary for a "good life?" Perhaps not, but I'm not gonna deprive my kids of some of the "good stuff" in life like that. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
 
   / Private school, Home schooling, etc.
  • Thread Starter
#37  
Hey Ranchy

Very well written reply to my reply to your reply to my reply to your reply/w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif! I think we might agree more closely than we think, as you say. I attempted at the end of my last post to show how that came about, even though our initial perspectives may differ a bit in temporal and eternal things. Even if we don't agree, that's O.K with me. I am not trying to convince, but to illuminate an idea. And I've never been considered to be the brightest bulb in the package. /w3tcompact/icons/clever.gif/w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif

One thing up front - if I seemed to be condemning anyone, I apologize loud and long for that. I do not think there is one way to live on earth, although I think there is a best way. It's hard to talk about because we are bouncing back and forth between earthly and eternal perspectives. I think that is part of the problem. And the solution. /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif No one is going to be condemned to damnation because they attend or send their kids to PS - I hope that is not the conlcusion my responses cause anyone to draw regarding my opinions. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify that; that's why I like the way this forum works, and the quality of people responding to the threads (such as yourself), because we don't let each other get away with things, and we do so in a respectful if not meek manner. I hereby revise my earlier posts to remove any inference of condemnation.

If we are considering only what makes good citizens, there are a multitude of paths, including good old football (I played four years, and wrestled, and did track - I have the knees to prove it!). I should perhaps clarify this as we put an end to this conversation. I do not claim to know the only way to live a good life on earth. My post, perhaps better sent privately, was meant to show my heart a bit, ugly and stinky as it might be.....not to elevate myself above others. I hope I am coming across as one who points to the truth rather than pointing the finger at others. I can see how some of my stronger statements could be doing that, and for that I can only repeat that I am not creating truth, but illuminating it. No human has a lock on the truth, only what is revealed to them. If something revealed points out an error, then so be it. I am only now starting to get more comfortable with finding I am in error, which is often!

To quote the ancient & revered Firesign Theatre boys: "We're all Bozos on this bus"

My attitude, as honestly and succinctly as I can describe it, is that since we spend a relatively minute amount of time on earth and an infinite time in eternity, we should arrange our thinking appropriately. My responses may better be understood considering that perspective.

I herewith and forthwith bow to your dominant keyboarding ability.
 
   / Private school, Home schooling, etc. #38  
Knucklehead -

Funny how those who agree on the vast majority of things still find room for a LOT of discussion on the few things they don't agree on! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

I'm glad this thread remained so civil even though we see things (with regards to PS that is) differently. Especially since we have been talking about a multitude of things MUCH more controversial and potentially explosive than which tractor to buy! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

<font color=blue>I herewith and forthwith bow to your dominant keyboarding ability.</font color=blue>

No need for that - I'd prefer a friendly handshake as we both depart for our perspective "locker rooms." /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif I kindof look at this whole thing like a scrimmage instead of a contest - hopefully we both learned something about each other and ourselves by going through this exercise.

Take care!
 
   / Private school, Home schooling, etc. #39  
Mark -- My daughters attended public school in California, and having met a few home schooled teens recently I really wish I had HS'd my kids. My kids were often bored by PS, so I found myself augmenting their education with more challenging (and often more applicable) studies. That seems to be key in the kids who were 100% HS'd. Not only are they not forced to "progress" at the level of the slowest classmate, but parents can be much more innovative when it comes to practical demonstrations of applicability. I know one young boy who became a killer old car mechanic after his father used a carburator to demonstrate the physics of flow and atomization. Another learned celestial navigation as her family cruised the South Pacific...and went on to become a brilliant mathematician. I think those early childhood demonstrations have a lot more power to motivate a sense of drive and wonder. Another thing I notice among home schoolers is how the children enjoy joining in the dinnertime discussions of geopolitic or whatever...as if learning in the presence of adults fosters a maturity of outlook not seen in those taught in the pack. Lastly, the HS'ers are more critical TV viewers; they challenge assumptions.

I don't mean to slam PS, as there are certainly many PS products who grow up into fine human beings. And, of course, my opinion of the effectiveness and efficacy of home schooling is based on a small sample (14) of home schooled kids. But I can't help but wonder how much more my daughters would have gotten out of the learning experience if it had happened at home.

Pete
 
   / Private school, Home schooling, etc.
  • Thread Starter
#40  
From what you describe, as far as I'm concerned, Pete, you did homeschool them - you just used a subcontractor.

My big thing, when all the above stuff is boiled down, is parental involvment. Of course, my faith enters into it, and I have strong opinions (who, ME?) about the various kinds of religion being taught in school, but it boils down to parental involvment.

I've been listening to Bill Bennett for a couple days on the radio, and man am I ever fired up to keep this going.....but maybe it's time to stop. There's a man with an opinion about what's going on in public schools. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
 

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