Propane or Electric?

[sherpa]

We did the same thing you are doing about 12 years ago.
LP Gas range, LP Gas pack with AC, Electric water heater.
We heat with wood, LP gas wall heater backup, works without power.

We have lots of power outage living in the National forest.
We can run a 5000 watt gen to heat water and run well pump when needed.
(Make sure you buy a gas range that will work without power)
Ours only worke the burners not the oven without power.
Power outages are not a problem for us now!
sherpa

 

[tkappeler]

We have 100% electric house. It is heated by geothermal HP. Shop is heated by Halcyon air/air HP. We installed 24 kW PV system last year. In other words we heat and AC the house by PV. So here is my suggestion to consider:
If I would build the house today I would position it such a way that the roof crest is EW and the south facing roof slope is about 37 deg. Then I would populate it with PV panels. I would use units similar to Halcyon for each room. The whole shebang would cost about as much as the geothermal alone and would not use power at all. Provided that you could do PV installation DIY. PV panels were last year for way less than $1/W. The cost about doubled by adding cabling, inverters, racking etc. but then you get the tax rebate for alternative energy system and mortgage interest.

We do have about 700 square feet of ESE (120 degrees) roof. Putting an angle on PV to make them face South would totally look crappy from the front of the house. In addition, this is not completely unobstructed as there are trees in the neighbors yard there. In order to put a ground based array, I would have to clear about an acre of trees, which is not what we want to do either. I would almost prefer a windmill to a PV array.

We discussed the mini-split units but really do not like the look on the interior, especially the great room.

What is your electric rate vs current propane cost? Propane is expensive energy around here. I have a Heat pump that is only used for cooling. Wood heats me three times ... cut it, split it, burn it.

Our electric is 0.180/kWh (average) and the the propane is $3.19/gallon if we go with propane for heating also. It would be higher if we only used propane for cooking and clothes dryer.

TK, I went with a instant propane hot water heater, cooktop & a ventless fireplace. Filled the 500 gallon tank at the beginning of winter & we have used about 200 gallons so far. I'm not too crazy about the usage since I primarily heat with wood. I think the hot water heater is sucking the majority of our gas so this spring/summer I am going to build a solar hot water heater which hopefully will by-pass the tankless heater 90% of the time.

This is my first time ever having any propane appliances in a house and to be honest I like the convenience & the instant heat it gives. But this comes at a price that seems higher then any electric equivalent. I think eventually I will go all solar and only keep the propane as back-ups.....solar is down to a dollar a watt which is awesome.

If we decide to go with propane for water heating, it will be a 90%+ efficiency so we can direct vent since with an open concept, there is not a lot of space to run a full double wall chimney or other traditional chimney. I am considering this NEXT Hybrid water heater but have not seen many reviews on it.

 

[Ken45101]

If you are primarily using wood, what you use for secondary is less of a critical choice.

hearth.com has a heating cost comparison calculator where you input your local costs and appliance efficiencies. Generally electric is expensive although at moderate temperatures, heat pump efficiency is above 100%.
Fuel Cost Comparison Calculator

Unvented propane fireplaces are 99+% efficient. We have heated exclusively with them and currently my son heat exclusively with an unvented propane fireplace. He literally only gets the minimum fill per year and they are charging him rent on the tank because he doesn't use enough propane!

I know, a lot of people are fearful of unvented gas appliances but we we have not experienced any problems.

 

[bp fick]

Many of us in rural areas have no Natural Gas. It's pick your poison kind of thing. Neither propane nor electricity is cheap. Propane is sky high up here and headed north. It's heavy and transportation costs are only rising. Electricity isn't cheap, but there's more ways to make it, I guess. I also don't feel all that comfortable with propane devices and routing lines in our basement, below grade. LP sinks and that gives me concerns, although we do use some. Wife likes the propane stove for cooking.

Wood heat saves a bunch, but we too struggle with the water heater, supplemental heating devices for when you're gone from the house, and these kinds of issues.

Short answer is that millions of rural folks face this same conundrum.

 

[JerryK]

If you heat a lot of water, gas is cheaper than electricity. If not, it is about a wash. The gas heats the water cheaper but you have a lot of heat loss with the flue in the center of your water tank and the chimney. The less chimneys/heat going out the ceiling, the better. The new thermos type electric heaters [ all plastic, thick insulation ] are great, but not that great if your power goes out and you have to run a generator. Same with electric heat, hard to run on a generator. Your big heat loss in the house is mainly the windows... don't skimp on quality there.. Best thing is to have multiple ways to heat, whatever your choice.....

 

[tkappeler]

If you heat a lot of water, gas is cheaper than electricity. If not, it is about a wash. The gas heats the water cheaper but you have a lot of heat loss with the flue in the center of your water tank and the chimney. The less chimneys/heat going out the ceiling, the better. The new thermos type electric heaters [ all plastic, thick insulation ] are great, but not that great if your power goes out and you have to run a generator. Same with electric heat, hard to run on a generator. Your big heat loss in the house is mainly the windows... don't skimp on quality there.. Best thing is to have multiple ways to heat, whatever your choice.....

Although we have some large windows (most 6' tall in 9' wall height), the walls are R26 and the roof is R40+. The windows are the Andersen low-E, SmartSun glazing ... the best they offer in terms of heat gain/loss.

Primary heat is wood and I am putting in a generator lockout kit so we can run what we need if the power goes out.

 

[dave1949]

This Voltex model looks interesting also. Voltexｮ Hybrid Electric Heat Pump - Water Heaters Residential by A. O. Smith

Their cost of use chart shows it to be one of the cheapest. It does look complicated, expensive, and probably acts as a room chiller, and that heat (in winter) has to be made up from some source. In summer, it would help the AC.

Good point about gas cook tops being usable without power. Ours can be lit with a match if power is out. Our range is dual fuel, the oven is electric. The main thing to figure out is how does coffee get brewed when the power is out. With fresh coffee, I can face any disaster :laughing:

 

[Redneck in training]

What is your electric rate vs current propane cost? Propane is expensive energy around here. I have a Heat pump that is only used for cooling. Wood heats me three times ... cut it, split it, burn it.

Our electric rate varies somewhat every 6 months. Current rate is 11.5 cent/kWh. Heating rate is 4.8 cent/kWh. We also have two propane fireplaces as backup heat and for occasional ambiance. We burn about 20-40 gal/year. How much is propane in our area? I don't have a clue.

 

[kenmac]

Good point about gas cook tops being usable without power.

Not saying they don't make them,but I've never seen a gas cook top that couldn't be lit with a match durning a power outage.Even the top eyes on a gas range can be match lit without power. Oven is a different story. It needs 110

 

[Redneck in training]

The PV panels don't have to face exactly south. Shading is a real problem because it kills the power generation. I was thinking about windmill also but at current cost of PV panels the PV beats wind hands down. We built our PV system for about 1.45/W DIY (after tax rebate). If you place the panels on a roof you can bring the cost down another 10-25%.
Windmill looks OK on the paper only. One problem is turbulence and the biggest is maintenance because it has to be regularly maintained and it is 120 ft high. Another issue with windmill is that you just can't disconnect load from it. You have to keep it loaded or stopped. If the brake fails it will self-destruct.