Propane shortage

[tractchores]

We use propane for a pool heater and cooking, so it rarely gets filled. The tank is leased, which at first was annoying as there's a minimum charge. However I just had major repairs done on all the regulators costing around $500. Since the tanks are leased they own and maintain the regulators per the lease, so now I'm ahead of the game since I didn't need to pay for the repairs. Of course I'm locked into one vendor and they definitely don't have the best prices, so if I used more than 100 gallons per year I'd probably be looking at buying my own tank....

 

[kenmac]

I have heard that efficiencies over 90% do NOT pay out. Much higher initial costs and more frequent maintenance costs for the high efficiency units.

FWIW, my son just paid over $4/gallon for propane. They don't even use their "high efficiency" furnace (it's broke) but rather heat with an unvented gas fireplace. Running the furnace is much more expensive than the fireplace.

The higher efficient furnace will pay off If you don't pay an arm and a leg for it . It doesn't cost any more for me to perform maintenance on a 98% than it does for a 93% . Now, the parts cost less for a 93% than for 98%. Motors dual, stage gas valve, etc,cost more...
Like anything new.When the high efficiency furnaces , A/C units 1st came out there were a lot of problems. Not so much any more

 

[coobie]

Propane prices back in the early 2003 which were crazy high like todays price is why I heat with wood pellets($174 per ton).I only use about 300 gals. per year of propane.My yearly fill up was in august at $1.25 gal.

 

[LD1]

PMy yearly fill up was in august at $1.25 gal.

The lowest I seen my rates this summer was 1.35/gallon. But I dont monitor it daily and just happened to see that on their website.

But even if I could save 0.10/gallon by owning my tank, I just dont see the payback since I have no lease fee or minimum charge.

Since I fill up only once ever 4-5 years, and 10 cents a gallon on 400 gallons (80% of a 500gal tank), is only $40 every 4 years. So a $1000 tank would only take 100 years to pay for itself provided I never had any issues with the gauge, regulator, etc. Just not worth it in my case.

 

[coobie]

The lowest I seen my rates this summer was 1.35/gallon. But I dont monitor it daily and just happened to see that on their website.

But even if I could save 0.10/gallon by owning my tank, I just dont see the payback since I have no lease fee or minimum charge.

Since I fill up only once ever 4-5 years, and 10 cents a gallon on 400 gallons (80% of a 500gal tank), is only $40 every 4 years. So a $1000 tank would only take 100 years to pay for itself provided I never had any issues with the gauge, regulator, etc. Just not worth it in my case.

Bought my own new 500 gal. tank about 4 years ago installed for $700 bucks.Not a bad price IMHO.Nice to shop price and not be tied down to one company.

 

[Trails End]

I had a fill up of propane on 12/17/2013 at 3.629/gal. It looks like my next fill up
is going to be around 4.28/gal. based on recent deliveries at locations close by.
After reading this thread, I didn't realize that there was such a variation in price
for different regions of the country.

 

[coobie]

I had a fill up of propane on 12/17/2013 at 3.629/gal. It looks like my next fill up
is going to be around 4.28/gal. based on recent deliveries at locations close by.
After reading this thread, I didn't realize that there was such a variation in price
for different regions of the country.

WOW that price is nuts.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Propane is one of the wet gases from oil/ gas wells. comes from the well all together, has to be separated.

Wood pellets $225 and higher per ton here.

 

[tcartwri]

Just paid $1.04 L or $4.29 US gallon. That's 40 cents a L more than this fall.

 

[farmer2009]

My fill up in December was $1.65. But that is a special poultry price. We were just told to shutdown heaters in poultry houses. We have been rationed all flock to about 200 gal. A week per house. Couldn't imagine paying over $4 a gal. For propane. I would have to find a new heating source. Would make that outdoor boiler justifiable.

 

[LD1]

I am not sold on wood pellets as being an efficient heat. It is only slightly better than propane if you look in terms of $ per btu. And prices fluctuate so much on everything.

I fill the tank in the summer when prices are low. At $1.50 per gallon for example, $100 would buy me 6.1 million btu's of heat.

At $200/ton pellets would give 6.8 million btu's per $100.

Given that small increase, but the added hassle of having to keep it full, and having to haul a few tons of pellets each year, I don't think I would burn pellets even if someone gave me a furnace for free.

But I can see advantages in other areas where propane is more $$$ of pellets are still only $200 / ton

 

[charlz]

I am not sold on wood pellets as being an efficient heat. It is only slightly better than propane if you look in terms of $ per btu. And prices fluctuate so much on everything.

I fill the tank in the summer when prices are low. At $1.50 per gallon for example, $100 would buy me 6.1 million btu's of heat.

At $200/ton pellets would give 6.8 million btu's per $100.

Given that small increase, but the added hassle of having to keep it full, and having to haul a few tons of pellets each year, I don't think I would burn pellets even if someone gave me a furnace for free.

But I can see advantages in other areas where propane is more $$$ of pellets are still only $200 / ton

Depends greatly on your propane prices. My average over six of the last eight years has been $2.32/gallon for propane. That is summer and winter prices. I haven't called in the two years as my stove has paid for itself but I would call periodically and get the price even though I didn't need a fill. My wood pellet prices have been around $180/ton purchased on sale in the summer.

So that $100 only buys me 3.9 million BTUs of propane but buys me 9.4 million BTU's of wood pellets. I base this on the manufacture rating of 8500BTU's/pound. I think your 6.8 million BTU's is a little low as that only comes out to 6800 BTU's per pound of wood.

Gets even more when you figure my winter prices are higher than average. If I was using propane all winter I would need 3-4 fills per year mostly in the dead of winter when prices are highest. If I had to buy propane at the currently reported $4/gallon my wood pellet savings would really kick in.

 

[batwing]

I am not sold on wood pellets as being an efficient heat. It is only slightly better than propane if you look in terms of $ per btu. And prices fluctuate so much on everything.

I fill the tank in the summer when prices are low. At $1.50 per gallon for example, $100 would buy me 6.1 million btu's of heat.

At $200/ton pellets would give 6.8 million btu's per $100.

Given that small increase, but the added hassle of having to keep it full, and having to haul a few tons of pellets each year, I don't think I would burn pellets even if someone gave me a furnace for free.

But I can see advantages in other areas where propane is more $$$ of pellets are still only $200 / ton

We have a pellet boiler and propane boiler. There are a lot of differences in Pellets, premium pellets are about 200 dollars per ton but just went up 15.00 here. We also filled up with propane last summer it was 2.39 gallon. If it is above 40deg we use propane, but below 35deg pellets save us a lot.

 

[LD1]

Definataly a lot of variables. You are assuming buying enough pellets at the summer low. Which can also be done with propane if you have a large enough tank.

And the website I saw had 13.6 M btu listed for pellets.

Another question I have and haven't researched...how efficient is a pellet burner? How many of them BTUs are actually heating your house? I know a lot of propane furnaces are over 90%

 

[batwing]

Definataly a lot of variables. You are assuming buying enough pellets at the summer low. Which can also be done with propane if you have a large enough tank.

And the website I saw had 13.6 M btu listed for pellets.

Another question I have and haven't researched...how efficient is a pellet burner? How many of them BTUs are actually heating your house? I know a lot of propane furnaces are over 90%

There is a big difference in pellet stoves last I new 72% was about as efficient as they get, some get dirty fast and are hard to clean they are not very efficient when dirty. Good pellets make a big difference.

 

[charlz]

I track my pellet use so I know about how much I need each year. The price stays fairly flat through the year but I buy what I think I need during the summer 'stock up now' sales. If I need one more ton in spring it might be $20 higher than if I bought the summer before. In order store enough propane I would need multiple large tanks. Based on my pellet use I would need at least 1000 gallons on hand to ensure I made it from summer fill to summer fill. They only fill to 80% so one 1,000 gallon tank would not do it. The larger the tank the more the cost so I would have to factor in higher rental or pay back if I purchased them.


My pellet stove claims 85.2% efficient and IIRC my furnace is 89% or 91%, I have it written down somewhere. One chief difference though is the pellet stove has no duct loss. My furnace ducts are insulated but ran through the unheated crawlspace under my house. Every time the furnace kicks on it blows cold air into the house and then it takes a while to warm the ducts up before you get full temp. So I consider it to be a wash between the two as far as efficiency goes and I just compare on a BTU-BTU basis of the fuel.

 

[kenmac]

I've never seen a pellet stove, But based on what LD is saying his propane cost vs pellet cost, and the pellet stove only being 72% efficient the 80% furnace (which is the min. efficiently you can buy) beats the pellet stove. That's a lot of heat going up the stack on the pellet stove

 

[AMD]

Just paid $1.04 L or $4.29 US gallon. That's 40 cents a L more than this fall.

Had heard that it topped the 1$ per litre mark locally - our next fill-up should be in a week or so and I'm not looking forward to it. I've been trying to burn some more wood to offset.

Think we paid $0.63 a litre in Oct, $0.73 in Nov and $0.889 in Dec. Not the kind of trend I like.

 

[tcartwri]

Had heard that it topped the 1$ per litre mark locally - our next fill-up should be in a week or so and I'm not looking forward to it. I've been trying to burn some more wood to offset.

Think we paid $0.63 a litre in Oct, $0.73 in Nov and $0.889 in Dec. Not the kind of trend I like.

What's more irritating is that we were pushed into the switch by our home insurer and the oil company. There was nothing wrong with our existing oil setup at all.

 

[batwing]

I track my pellet use so I know about how much I need each year. The price stays fairly flat through the year but I buy what I think I need during the summer 'stock up now' sales. If I need one more ton in spring it might be $20 higher than if I bought the summer before. In order store enough propane I would need multiple large tanks. Based on my pellet use I would need at least 1000 gallons on hand to ensure I made it from summer fill to summer fill. They only fill to 80% so one 1,000 gallon tank would not do it. The larger the tank the more the cost so I would have to factor in higher rental or pay back if I purchased them.


My pellet stove claims 85.2% efficient and IIRC my furnace is 89% or 91%, I have it written down somewhere. One chief difference though is the pellet stove has no duct loss. My furnace ducts are insulated but ran through the unheated crawlspace under my house. Every time the furnace kicks on it blows cold air into the house and then it takes a while to warm the ducts up before you get full temp. So I consider it to be a wash between the two as far as efficiency goes and I just compare on a BTU-BTU basis of the fuel.

The pellet stove efficiency rating published by their manufacturers is a combined rating which includes combustion efficiency, electrical efficiency and heat transfer efficiency. Pellet stoves mostly burn at over 98% combustion efficiency, and the electrical efficiency is about 99%. Assume, for the sake of argument, that the heat transfer efficiency of a pellet stove is 60%. If you add up 98%, 99% and say 60%, you get 257. Divide that figure by three to get the overall efficiency and it comes out at 85.7%. All I know is when you walk into a house with radiant heat it feels good!! When the temp gets below 25Degs our pellet boiler cost about half what propane cost for us.
Ron