Propane shortage

[Cub 7274]

I just paid 96.7 L today also gave the govs $57 in tax money to help them out made me feel great

 

[LD1]

I track my pellet use so I know about how much I need each year. The price stays fairly flat through the year but I buy what I think I need during the summer 'stock up now' sales. If I need one more ton in spring it might be $20 higher than if I bought the summer before. In order store enough propane I would need multiple large tanks. Based on my pellet use I would need at least 1000 gallons on hand to ensure I made it from summer fill to summer fill. They only fill to 80% so one 1,000 gallon tank would not do it. The larger the tank the more the cost so I would have to factor in higher rental or pay back if I purchased them.


My pellet stove claims 85.2% efficient and IIRC my furnace is 89% or 91%, I have it written down somewhere. One chief difference though is the pellet stove has no duct loss. My furnace ducts are insulated but ran through the unheated crawlspace under my house. Every time the furnace kicks on it blows cold air into the house and then it takes a while to warm the ducts up before you get full temp. So I consider it to be a wash between the two as far as efficiency goes and I just compare on a BTU-BTU basis of the fuel.

I just paid 96.7 L today also gave the govs $57 in tax money to help them out made me feel great

Not knocking a pellet stove. Sounds like it is the right decision for you. Others it isnt. And I am not saying anyone on here said this, but I hear it all the time from other folks that pellets are cheaper heat, and all I am doing is proving that isnt the case in every situation.

My furnace is like 92% eff. have a 500 gal tank which will make it several years so I have the option to buy at summer low prices. This summer it was 1.35/gallon. and with one gallon equal to 91,200, the math is as follows....

91,200 x .92 = 83,900 BTU's I am actually getting for $1.35

($100/$1.35) x 83,900 BTU = 6.2 million BTU's for $100 spent. And I have to do nothing but call when I need filled.

A ton of pellets at 13.6 million BTU per ton, and $200 per ton, and an 80% furnace.

Thats 6.8 million BTU's per $100 times 80% eff is 5.4 million BTU's of home heat for $100.

Given the fact that I can buy propane when prices are low, and make it all winter, means I can get more heat for my dollar than with pellets. Even if a pellet stove were 100% efficient and I got the full 6.8 M BTU for the $100, it just aint worth the hastle of stocking pellets, feeding the stove, cleaning, etc.

It also helps that I have a heated basement. so heat loss in the ducts isnt lost at all.

Again, every situation is different. And not saying anyone in this thread said it, but I know alot of guys that swear pellets are cheaper heat than propane. And that just aint the case. And I dont think I need to mention that all of this changes as the price of propane goes up or down too. Obviously that changes the game. The fact that I have a heat pump and only need propane for backup allows me to buy in the summer. And others just dont have that luxury. Heat pumps are even more efficient than pellets. ANd given the "normal" climate where I live, It makes more sense to spend your few grand on a heat pump to supplement the propane vs buying a pellet setup as sole heat. Just my :2cents:

 

[deerseeker001]

I just seen on a news site the Gov of Wisconsin is going to address the problem of LP shortage.I guess we will see what he has to say.

 

[coobie]

I am not sold on wood pellets as being an efficient heat. It is only slightly better than propane if you look in terms of $ per btu. And prices fluctuate so much on everything.

I fill the tank in the summer when prices are low. At $1.50 per gallon for example, $100 would buy me 6.1 million btu's of heat.

At $200/ton pellets would give 6.8 million btu's per $100.

Given that small increase, but the added hassle of having to keep it full, and having to haul a few tons of pellets each year, I don't think I would burn pellets even if someone gave me a furnace for free.

But I can see advantages in other areas where propane is more $$$ of pellets are still only $200 / ton

That's why I buy my wood pellets in July for $175 a ton.I think you need to do a little research on BTU,wood pellets verses propane.

 

[LD1]

That's why I buy my wood pellets in July for $175 a ton.I think you need to do a little research on BTU,wood pellets verses propane.

I did. and the few I seen listed 13.6 million btu/ton as kinda a common figure.

But much like firewood, alot depends on quality, condition, and moisture content. Whereas propane is a given 91,200 BTU/gal.

What are your numbers for the BTU/s per ton on pellets????

THe highest I have seen is 17-18 M btu.

And even using that number with an 80% efficient furnace and $200/ton, 80% of 9M BTU is only 7.2 million BTU. Sure, a little better than propane, but not enough to make it worth the hassle IMO

 

[batwing]

I did. and the few I seen listed 13.6 million btu/ton as kinda a common figure.

But much like firewood, alot depends on quality, condition, and moisture content. Whereas propane is a given 91,200 BTU/gal.

What are your numbers for the BTU/s per ton on pellets????

THe highest I have seen is 17-18 M btu.

And even using that number with an 80% efficient furnace and $200/ton, 80% of 9M BTU is only 7.2 million BTU. Sure, a little better than propane, but not enough to make it worth the hassle IMO

it is a hassle but when it gets cold there is a big difference in comfort and cost. (warm radiant heat)

 

[charlz]

I did. and the few I seen listed 13.6 million btu/ton as kinda a common figure.

But much like firewood, alot depends on quality, condition, and moisture content. Whereas propane is a given 91,200 BTU/gal.

What are your numbers for the BTU/s per ton on pellets????

THe highest I have seen is 17-18 M btu.

And even using that number with an 80% efficient furnace and $200/ton, 80% of 9M BTU is only 7.2 million BTU. Sure, a little better than propane, but not enough to make it worth the hassle IMO

Here is some real world testing:

http://woodpellets4me.com/pdf/2011-2012-PelletReview.pdf

They say the average is 8300BTU/lb and surprisingly that softwood pellets actually produce BTU's more than hardwoods based on the caloric content because the resins burn better in a pellet appliance versus a wood stove where hardwoods perform better. I have seen some of the local brands claim 8900/lb but I have always used the lower 8500/lb number.

So your 6800 is on the extreme low side of the range (7000 to over 9000 per the linked).

If I only had to pay $1.35 for propane I wouldn't burn pellets either. Unfortunately my propane costs have typically been more around $2.60 with one year I paid $1.97 which was the lowest ever in 10 years.

 

[coobie]

Here is some real world testing:

http://woodpellets4me.com/pdf/2011-2012-PelletReview.pdf

They say the average is 8300BTU/lb and surprisingly that softwood pellets actually produce BTU's more than hardwoods based on the caloric content because the resins burn better in a pellet appliance versus a wood stove where hardwoods perform better. I have seen some of the local brands claim 8900/lb but I have always used the lower 8500/lb number.

So your 6800 is on the extreme low side of the range (7000 to over 9000 per the linked).

If I only had to pay $1.35 for propane I wouldn't burn pellets either. Unfortunately my propane costs have typically been more around $2.60 with one year I paid $1.97 which was the lowest ever in 10 years.

That's the same report that I was looking for.Thanks for posting.coobie

 

[JamesHW]

No real dog in this fight since we use no Propane whatsoever, but here in the city on our November NG bill we used 100 therms which with all the extra fees, taxes & etc., came to about $1.05 per therm all included. Can't say what they charge up in the country since we have had the NG disconnected for many years (there is a NG line running along the road). Our house in the city is almost all gas for cooking, water heater, clothes dryer & heat. Electric bill is minimal except during the hot, muggy summer when we run the AC.

In planning to build a new house out of our barn frame we are considering going geothermal (possibly a horizontal ground loop system), with NG as a backup, but are still considering what will be best. Having 80 acres of mostly woods the temptation to burn wood is high, but I have to consider ease of use for my spouse if something happens to me.

 

[PastTense]

There are crazy price increases in the midwest this week:
Propane, the primary heat source in 6 million homes and 2 million businesses, jumped nearly $1 to $4.37 a gallon Thursday at one the nation's prime trading hubs. Prices in some tight Midwest markets shot up to nearly $5 a gallon.
Frigid temperatures heat up home utility bills

While I contracted in the summer for $1.37/gallon I have been using a lot and may have to buy more than I contracted (the excess would be at very high prices).