Property Lines

[dodge man]

In my area 99% of the time property is bought and sold without a survey. If you read your title insurance it won't cover anything a survey would reveal as a title problem. Places that do require a survey its usually the lender and/or the title insurance company. I've never seen or heard of a law the requires it.

I personally would never sign a survey, even if I did it just a few years ago, without going out and at least finding the corners again.

I guess I should add I'm a Professional Land Surveyor.

As far as I know, surveyors don't get "rich" doing the work. They make a fair to good living at best, and there helpers make a lot less. In a way, property that has been surveyed several times in the past is not a good way to make money, its easy to do it again so we charge a lot less. We aren't like realators where we charge a percentage of the value.

 

[John Fitzgerald]

Title companies around here won't write title policies without a "modern" survey. No title insurance = no financing.

 

[dodge man]

To the OP, you and your neighbor went about it all wrong. You get in a heated argument about where the boundary is and can't agree, you both hire surveyors and lawyers. After spending thousands you finally get your day in court. You and your lawyers are both just sure you will win. Before the trial begins the judge tell you to take the argument out in the hall and reach an agreement, he is not going to mess with silly boundary disputes and waste the courts time. Then you reach the agreement just like you did from day one. The difference is you didn't make a lawyer any money in the process.

The above paragraph is meant as a joke but after surveying for over 30 years, I've seen it happen more than once.

 

[JRobyn]

I always get a chuckle out of the "find the corners" phrase. IIRC, our property boundary includes nearly 200 individual metes and bounds. Not a "corner" in the bunch.

I was pleased to find that when I entered all of the metes and bounds into a survey mapping program that it "closed" very accurately. And when I printed out the boundary on clear mylar and overlaid it on an identically-scaled topo map, the boundaries lined up exactly with all of the creek bottoms and roads that constitute the majority of our boundaries. I am sure that the paths of the creekbottoms have moved a bit over the decades. If that means I've lost a foot or two in one place, I've likely gained the same in another.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

from todays newspaper:

Beginning for the same at the Northeast corner of said Northwest Quarter of the Southeast Quarter of Section 13, thence on a straight line a little Southwest to a stone in the center of the public road leading up the hill from Cameron, passing 10 feet South of a sarvis bush standing about 3 rods East of said road up in the field about 24 rods. Said stone in the center of the road supposed to be about 2 1/2 rods South of the Northern boundary of said Northwest Quarter; thence from said stone in the center of the road southward down the hill following the meandering of said road in the center across the entire said Northwest Quarter to Stephen *******—´ line to a stone in the center of said road; thence East supposed to be about 24 rods to the Southeast corner of said Quarter; thence North to the place of beginning, supposed to contain about 11 acres

I love the " following the meandering of said road"

 

[TheMan419]

To the OP, you and your neighbor went about it all wrong. You get in a heated argument about where the boundary is and can't agree, you both hire surveyors and lawyers. After spending thousands you finally get your day in court. You and your lawyers are both just sure you will win. Before the trial begins the judge tell you to take the argument out in the hall and reach an agreement, he is not going to mess with silly boundary disputes and waste the courts time. Then you reach the agreement just like you did from day one. The difference is you didn't make a lawyer any money in the process.

The above paragraph is meant as a joke but after surveying for over 30 years, I've seen it happen more than once.

Since I am a lawyer I thought I would save myself the headache. No offense, but the most boring CLE I ever went to was how to read a legal description. I forgot to get my credits in and it was the only 6 hour class I could find that gave me credits. It was on December 28th a 2.5 hour one way drive for me to get to the class.

That all said I do a fair amount of divorce work and we argue over property all the time. So it is nice to see the legal description of the property and have half an idea of what it means.

I too have seen plenty of cases like you describe. Sad really. Happy that some lawyer is making money off of it, but really we can't just sit down and talk these days?

 

[Birdhunter1]

............................
for probably 100 years. References to "stake and stones" as corner points. Long overgrown, and the woods was full of rock piles.

You'd be amazed at how many old fences I have worked on that when I go to replace corner structures somewhere within a few inches of that corner post you can find a large diameter short thickness rock, say a 10" diameter rock a few inches thick, or a stack of rocks underground like someone dug a hole and stacked a bunch of 4" rocks on top of each other. One farm I was working at the old guy that owned the place told me there is a rock about the size of a dinner plate next to the post, it was there when he was a kid and his dad told him that it was there when he bought the farm in the early 1900's.
The owners words were don't move that rock!

 

[dodge man]

It was very common out west that the original government surveyors built rock mounds for the section and quarter section corners. Of course over time these tend to sink into the dirt. In my area of Illinois, and I think this goes for most of the state, they set a post in a sod mound for almost all of the corners. The evidence of these are long gone, some having been set over 200 years ago. Illinois had a county surveyor office in place for most of the counties for many years, which as far as I know no longer exists. These county suveyors did a lot of surveying over the years and the usually set stones for their work. Of course how do you know if a stone near a fence corner is a property corner of just a rock that got tossed there? In my area if they were set by the county surveyor they were often a standstone which is not really a rock that would pop up in a field.

You also bring up an important point in surveying, owner testimony. In theory, as a land surveyor in Illinois, I can swear a person in and take sworn testimony. I've never done this. I'm also allowed to use my judgement on if a person is telling me something that would favor them by telling me something false. I've often talked to land owners about corners and they are almost truthfull. Someone that says the stone next to a post is a property corner is as good as gold in my book.

 

[TXHF]

My lines are clear and I know where all the survey pins are but if someone wants to step over and mow it before I put the fence up? They are absolutely welcome to mow all they want. ****, I'll even give 'em beer and watch from my hammock.

Glad to know there are some people willing to meet and watch each other's backs. I've only met one neighbor up there thus far and they all seem very nice. I rolled up on the whole family shooting targets but I did not know they'd bought that parcel. They haven't fenced yet either.

 

[Woodeye]

My forty acres is marked with sunken "Ford axles". A few years ago a timber company surveyed the entire area and they used cotton gin spindles. The two are sort of similar in that they have a bevel gear on them, cotton gin spindles appeared to be stainless steel.

 

[oosik]

The three of my corners that are surveyed are marked with 6' rods driven in the ground and a survey cap on top. Basic survey data has been inscribed on these caps. They are driven in so the cap is level with the ground. I have placed large rocks around these caps to protect from the neighbors cattle and any other type of abrasion.

 

[mables357]

that sounds and reads like my deed

 

[fishheadbob]

My deed is a beauty that has descriptions like "to the top of the bank on the other side of the creek", or "along the old barbed wire fence to the large elm tree" (yeah, right, they died in the 1950s) . Which old barbed wire fence. I have a spot where there are 2 stakes for the same boundary about 20 feet from one another. Which is the right boundary ? I'm lucky that for decades I had good neighbors who understood that boundaries were vague when the Dutch surveyed way back when, but since this property sits over some gas and oil resources, that could all change if the resource is ever developed. Old neighbors passed, new ones are unknowns.

 

[Turbys_1700]

When I was a young boy back in the 60's my grandfather took me over all of his properties. Most of those boundaries were marked by rock piles, trees, metal rods, etc...Since then my father has had all properties run with accurate metal rods on the corners. I am currently selling off a few building lots on the back side of the farm and it takes forever to get surveyors to get any work done. Very busy now.

The properties that I am selling are located on a local state maintained tar and gravel road. The state determined years ago that it was not fair to charge landowners tax on property that was in the right-of-way. Surveyors start at the center line of the highway and come back to the right of way boundaries to start the corner. It's more fair now but then the country just raises the rate to make op the difference. You can't win.

 

[LouNY]

My deed is very simple, it references following the stone walls Northerly so many feet, then Easterly so many feet, Then Southerly, then Westerly.
I expect when I sell it will need a new survey.

 

[kthompson]

Had a person buy a small piece of land I wanted and owner said I was the only person who could use it. Other person ended up with it and no survey for he had studied surveying and is a know it all. However he ended up with a piece of land he is not able to get driveway onto it as the frontage was too narrow for legal drive way. Now a license surveyor would have adviced him of that.

 

[Wsmitty]

To the OP, you and your neighbor went about it all wrong. You get in a heated argument about where the boundary is and can't agree, you both hire surveyors and lawyers. After spending thousands you finally get your day in court. You and your lawyers are both just sure you will win. Before the trial begins the judge tell you to take the argument out in the hall and reach an agreement, he is not going to mess with silly boundary disputes and waste the courts time. Then you reach the agreement just like you did from day one. The difference is you didn't make a lawyer any money in the process.

The above paragraph is meant as a joke but after surveying for over 30 years, I've seen it happen more than once.

Years ago a coworker brought a property and the new survey revealed that his neighbors stone wall, running the entire length of the boundary, was sitting a couple feet onto his property. The neighbors kids used to run along the top and play around the short wall. His lawyer recommended as a CYA for potential liability, to have a conversation with the neighbor and have him sign a lease the lawyer drew up. IIRC it was like a 100 year lease for the sum of $1.

My co-worker spoke to the guy and joked that the lease and a 6 pack would seal the deal. The neighbor became enraged and stated the wall had been there for many years and it was on his property, stating the new survey was wrong.

Fast forward. After multiple surveys (the neighbor ordered a new one that confirmed his wall was on my coworkers property. He eventually found a surveyor to agree with him), lawyer fees, etc., they end up in court. The judge looks everything over and finds that the wall is on my co-workers property. The judge tells my co-worker it's his call. Offer to lease an easemant he had originally, or have the wall removed.

My coworker was so pissed at all the neighbor put him through, he had the judge order the guy to remove the wall.

 

[DrRod]

I too have a deed that is built on statements like: from the rock pile, 50 paces from the oak, and from the line surveyed by captain Croghan. All this from before the civil war. Most of it runs up against state game lands and is deep woods so it really doesn't matter much. The county seems to have a good map so we rely on that for timber sale boundaries.

What's interesting here is that we have living lines. About 20 of our 200 acres extends into the next county. Its seen as trivial so for tax purposes they just bend the county line around our property line and consider it all in the majority county.

Also of interest is that there is a very old cemetery on state ground right on our border. As I understand it, the state can't own a cemetery so again they just bend our property line to incorporate the cemetery.

As an aside, the cemetery was associated with a log cabin Dunkard church in the 1800's. The old part has the graves laid out sort of north/south rather than the standard east/west. No one can say why. Maybe I'll start a thread on that to see if anyone has any insight into it.

 

[EddieWalker]

There is one side of my property with a fence. The front has a highway, and another side is the middle of a creek. Two other sides where thick woods. I talked to the owner about clearing a fence line, but not knowing where the property line is exactly and wouldn't until I got it all cleared I could run a string from pin to pin. He said to take out as much as I wanted so he would have access to his side of the property line too. I honestly still don't know where the line is, I just keep working at clearing it all when I have the time and he seems totally unconcerned with what I'm doing.

When I have it all cleared and graded, I'll run the string and ask him to take a look. If he agrees that it's where it should be, I'll sink a few T posts along the line and that will be that.

 

[TXHF]

Mine is from a survey this year so it's all rods, survey caps, precise compass directions and GPS coordinates. I'm going to evacuate the sod around those pins and pour in a 8" ring of concrete to protect the pin and cap so long as I can get my two neighbors to agree.