Generator PTO generator problem

[RonMar]

So the PTO output on your tractor is broken? That is a good one. Just how would a broken PTO torque a trailer into submission? A broken PTO is one that won't provide any torque. If it spins smoothly at the rated RPM, there is nothing wrong with it. The fact that it crunched the trailer tells me that it is working fine. My guess would be that there was excessive load required to turn over the genset and the torque output from the PTO had to go somewhere. You might check that all the shafts and couplings are still straight. Were there any startup procedures/instructions that say to slowly engage the PTO at lower engine RPM then once fully engaged, slowly work the genset up to full RPM with the throttle? If everything on the genset was OK, the only way I could envision what you described was if you engaged the PTO quickly with the engine at fulll rated RPM. In this situation, the spinning mass of the genset and gearbox couldn't absorbe the energy(accelerate) quick enough and the weaker support structure absorbed the torque load.

The term "Generator Field" refers to the way the voltage of the genset is controlled. The frequency is determined by the genset RPM. The output voltage is controlled by a small ammount of electrical current that is fed into the field windings to generate a magnetic field. The field windings are usually the spinning rotor section as it is easier to get the lower amperage field current to the rotor with small brushes and slip rings. This spinning magnetic field passes thru The main generator windings of the genset and voltage is generated. The more field current applied, the greater the magnetic field and the greater the generator output voltage. As you increase the electrical load on the genset, the voltage drops. A voltage regulator senses this and raises the field voltage to attempt to keep the output voltage constant with changing loads within the limits of the generator. The greater the field, the more mechanical force that is required to spin the rotor. If the field was full on, the tractor would be fighting this magnetic load as well as the inertia of the genset spinning parts.

 

[JHTFarmer]

Were there any startup procedures/instructions that say to slowly engage the PTO at lower engine RPM then once fully engaged, slowly work the genset up to full RPM with the throttle?

A voltage regulator senses this and raises the field voltage to attempt to keep the output voltage constant with changing loads within the limits of the generator. The greater the field, the more mechanical force that is required to spin the rotor. If the field was full on, the tractor would be fighting this magnetic load as well as the inertia of the genset spinning parts.

Thanks. The manual says something to the effect of: "engage the PTO then slowly increase the rpms until 59 to 61 hz reads on the genny".

So I engage the PTO @ idle speed. The machine is a hydro, so my PTO lever is basically an on-off switch. That is to say, there is no clutch I can "feather in". Ironically, the manual warns of some tractors with a PTO brake, but no warning of hydraulic driven PTOs. I wonder if this was an oversight by the company. They company man was concerned that there may be a more significant problem than with the trailer. It just happened to be the weakest link. i.e. "if the genny was mounted on a slab, I might be complaining of a broken PTO shaft, gearbox, or worse."

One other thing about this genny is that it is billed as being voltage regulated, that voltage stays constant regardless of load on the device. On startup, there is no load, so does that mean the field is on full and as a result much more magnetic load to overcome which contibuted to the crushing force applied to the trailer?

 

[gf5205]

How did you make sure the PTO was straight? It almost sounds as though the trailer wheels were off the ground when you engaged the PTO. If they were then the result is not unexpected.
Greg

 

[JHTFarmer]

How did you make sure the PTO was straight? It almost sounds as though the trailer wheels were off the ground when you engaged the PTO. If they were then the result is not unexpected.
Greg

Thanks. The PTO shaft was straight (within 10 degrees). Take a look at the picture: with an unbent trailer with an inflated tire on a unbent rim the PTO shaft is in an essentially straight line from the take off to the generator.

 

[frankc]

Just for Information. I have a TIGER-POWER PTO generator that came with it's own trailer! The trailer has a 3000lb weight rated solid axle, 5 lug trailer grade white spoke wheels with 1700lb 14" trailer tires.

The frame of the trailer is 1/8 inch plate with quite a few support braces welded into the bottom to support the axle and the tongue.

In other words, VERY STOUT! The trailer in your picture looks like it has wheel barrel tires and little 1/2" stub axles welded to some stamped steel.

 

[gf5205]

Oops! Missed the picture!
Greg

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Do these folks have a website? I'd like to ask them why MY tractors PTO would react any differently than yours. Maybe 2 or 3 THOUSAND other TBN'ers would like to know that reason too. (You get my drift?)

By the looks of things, that "trailer" probably wouldn't last very long, just towing it around WITHOUT using the generator. The comparison to the Radio Flyer wasn't fair. Those wagons are far better made than that thing appears.

 

[tracecom]

They company man was concerned that there may be a more significant problem than with the trailer. It just happened to be the weakest link. i.e. "if the genny was mounted on a slab, I might be complaining of a broken PTO shaft, gearbox, or worse."

One other thing about this genny is that it is billed as being voltage regulated, that voltage stays constant regardless of load on the device. On startup, there is no load, so does that mean the field is on full and as a result much more magnetic load to overcome which contibuted to the crushing force applied to the trailer?

Having been employed by a manufacturer of generators (not Winco) for over 8 years, I am confident to say that Winco is a reputable company and makes a quality genhead. The brochure for the unit you bought shows a much more substantial trailer than the one in your picture, which is obviously totally inadequate for a 15kw genhead. I assume you bought the trailer from Winco, but I don't think they believe it is up to the job. Send them the photo and I'll bet they figure out that there is nothing wrong with your PTO or tractor. By the way, here is the link for the PTO section of their Web site; click on the Brochure to see a photo of the trailer they recommend. http://www.wincogen.com/PTO.shtml

 

[sandman2234]

I recently bought a 10 Kw unit for my Steiner. It is great for my mother in laws, or sister in laws, but won't keep up with everything I want to run at my house. I figure I need at least a 15Kw, so I was doing some searching, looking for a new one.
I will be watching this post, so please let us know what is the outcome. Customer service/satisfaction is important to all of us, within reason. I don't believe in them replacing things that aren't their fault, but I wouldn't let my dog ride on that trailer, much less my PTO generator.
Thanks,
David from jax

 

[AndyG]

So I engage the PTO @ idle speed. The machine is a hydro, so my PTO lever is basically an on-off switch. That is to say, there is no clutch I can "feather in". Ironically, the manual warns of some tractors with a PTO brake, but no warning of hydraulic driven PTOs.
QUOTE]
I have the a TC40D which is the same tractor only painted blue and the PTO is not hydraulic and is definetly NOT an on-off switch like the electric clutch on a lawn tractor. You can feather in the PTO my moving the lever forward slowly. (very slowly). You mentioned that the unit started bouncing violently. I have noticed that my tractor will do the same thing when starting a heavy load if I engage it to fast and the rpms at low idle. Try speeding it up a couple hunderd rpms and engage the lever very slowly. Many engines have this problem when you apply a big load at idle. Everyone who has driven a stickshift has had the car buck when they let the clutch out to fast without the motor being revved a little. I agree that the trailer was not built strong enough but a also suspect that a little more finesse will help a lot.