Generator PTO Generator

dpm · Apr 7, 2003

Looking for some input from anyone with a PTO Generator. I have a Kubota B7500 (~17 HP at PTO).

We are in the midst of an ice storm here in upstate NY and rather than buy another motor to maintain (generator) have been kicking around the idea of buying a PTO driven generator since I've already paid for the motor in the tractor.

Thanks..

MikePA · Apr 7, 2003

Welcome to TBN, Doug. Try doing a search on the words 'PTO Generator', don't forget to change the date range to all posts, and you'll see a lot of messages on this topic.

Here's a link to a recent one.

Anonymous Poster · Apr 7, 2003

Well, you could look at the thread called Ice Storm Trev, on Related Topics, and get some information.
Trev caused this storm by doing witchcraft just so he could test his HUGE generator on the back of his Green Tractor.
I could comment on the subject, having just run 77 continuous hours on my ONAN powering up 2 houses, but I'm a bit tired.
PTO -v- Stand alone, well, if you are an RG&E, or NyMo customer, plan on needing a generator a lot more in the future than you ever did in the past, since both companys are now part of Eastern Group. The linemen I've been talking to from Long Island tell me 75% of the work they are having to do is from lack of proper maintainence for the sake of company profit. Linemen who should be working primary are loosing time because they are being required to repair residential services, and are having to wait for materials.
RG&E and NyMo are being run like ENRON.

5030 · Apr 7, 2003

Go to www.Generac.com and size a PTO Genset to your horsepower at the pto. I have a Winco set on a trailer that's short tongued and fits on the drawbar. I believe that they also make a 3 point harness that fits generator sets that eliminate the trailer. You don't have a lot so don't expect to light the whole town up.

We have a 100 amp unit that makes 220 and 110 single phase. It takes 50 horsepower to run it though I balance my loads so I don't pull hard on the tractor engine. We also have a hard wired transfer switch and have a secondary breakout box to disable the utility. if you power with a genset in bad weather, be sure to isolate your circuits from the incoming utility. If you don't, power crews working on lines near your residence may be electrocuted by your current backfeeding their lines.

Daryl
Forage Services, L.P.

gerard · Apr 7, 2003

I think you may be out of luck with 17 hp. The smallest pto gen sets I've ever seen put out 10kw but need 25 hp at the pto. Now you MAY be able to go with that size unit but you won't be able to get 10kw out of it which means you're spending about $2300 for something you won't be able to use to capacity. I had also debated going the pto route and had the hp to do it but it cost more and when I considered running a $14K piece of equipment as a generator and racking up hour on the engine, I opted to spend $1300 on an 8KW gas generator that does my whole house. I can get about 9-10 hours on tankful of gas and I run my whole house with the exception of the stove and dryer. Had it running from Sat morning to Sunday evening due to the ice storm.

gerard · Apr 7, 2003

<font color="blue">well, if you are an RG&E, or NyMo customer, plan on needing a generator a lot more in the future than you ever did in the past, since both companys are now part of Eastern Group. </font>
Gotta agree with you Franz. This last storm took down my neighbors service from the line to the weatherhead on the house. Broke one leg of the wire and it was laying in his driveway exposed. Course we called it in as lines down, powered up the generators and waited for the crews to come. Now I usually check periodically to see if powers back but didn't this time cause I knew his wires were still down and figured they wouldn't power up the line with wires still down. WRONG!!!!!! Called up for an eta and was told we were back on line. Check at the panel and yup, we're live again and his wires are still exposed and hot! Call back, explain situation and they say they don't know when they can get someone there. Neighbor gets mad, calls 911, fire dept shows up and they bring a supervisor from nimo. He looks around, says it's not too big a deal as it's only 120volts but says he'll send a crew to at least cap the line or reconnect it. No one shows up until the next day!!!! I went over and slipped the exposed wire in a piece of capped off pvc so if it rained it wouldn't touch the ground. I can't believe how they handled this. If it had rained that wire would have energized the ground, would not have tripped a breaker since it was before the meter and probably wouldn't trip the pole breaker. Does anyone know how close you would have to get to get hurt if the ground was wet?? Neighbor has barn cats and my thought was they would get zapped first??

Anonymous Poster · Apr 7, 2003

That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Luckily we borrowed a small generator saturday after I dumped about 500 gallons of water out of the basement as it started to flood. I wouldn't have been able to keep up all day doing that. Luckily we got power back sat night. I'm in Canandaigua area. I'm also thinking about a pto generator. Someone at work today mentioned a place called Industrial Hydraulics that carry smaller generators for 3pt attachment. He said he may get one to fit his JD garden tractor. I haven't been able to find them online. Just a thought.
Dave

Anonymous Poster · Apr 7, 2003

OK, everybody in upstate NY, hang onto your checkbooks.
I remembered tonight there is a PTO genset manufacturer around Binghampton that makes a nice set that isn't overpriced. It's a small company, and I should be able to dig up the info tomorrow, assuming the snow doesn't put a major crimp in my world.
Secondly, before you play the load calculation game on anybody's web site, ask Trev how much he is overpowered and overspent to do it.
There is a NASTY sucker game played in both the generator business and the "Electrician" business that feeeces people out of tons of money by selling over sized services, and oversized generators.
In PTO units, it really doesn't matter if you put a 100 kva machine behind a 17hp tractor, as long as you can get it turning, and up to speed, the machine will produce every watt your engine and driveline are capable of, and no more. If you load the generator more than the engine is capable of producing, the engine will stall.
Various and sundry versions of this law of physics are called "Peak Power" and "Surge load" capacity, because between the engine and rotating mass of the machine, instantaneous loads can be accomodated.
I've only been turning solid and liquid fuel into electrons for about 45 years now, and I do know a thing or two about generators.
Frequency stability is far more important than load capacity.
NOW, go buy an Amprobe or similar instrument on Ebay, and find out how much power you actually need.

jima1 · Apr 7, 2003

dpm:

Much discussion in the archives, as others have pointed out. Many strong opinions about PTO vs. stand-alone. My $0.02: I prefer the PTO gen, since I don't have time to maintain another engine and my tractor doesn't get that many hrs anyway. I can also see where a separate engine could be a better choice if you expect to need the tractor for other work when the outages are likely to occur (e.g. snow plowing), or need a fast or automatic start-up.

The rule of thumb is ~2HP/kW of output, you should be fine with an 8-10kW generator if you can find one (they are out there, but it might take some looking). My old B7200 has only 14 PTO HP, but turns my 7.5kW unit just fine under load. By all means get an electrician to set up a transfer switch or break-out panel, it's dangerous without a properly configured setup.

Jim

Anonymous Poster · Apr 8, 2003

This discussion gets me to thinking. I have an old 4KW contractor's generator that was originally powered by a Honda gas engine. Over the years, before I "inherited" it, the carburetor got gummed up, someone took apart the fuel system, and the electric start quit working. I priced the replacement parts, and it wasn't worth fixing. It's been kicking around under the work bench.

So, here's the question: would it be worth considering some sort of hookup for the generator to the PTO on my NH TC18, and what would it take? This question is just off the top of my head, and I haven't even bothered to walk outside and look at the generator, but I believe it's a belt drive unit. I suppose some sort of frame, a PTO shaft, and work out what size pulleys and belt would be required to convert 540 RPM to 3600 or whatever the generator likes (6.67:1?)...

JEP · Apr 8, 2003

Nothern Tool has a 13kW one for $1k. You need to add PTO shaft and mounting platform or trailer.

NT PTO Gen

Rubintropfen · Apr 8, 2003

Sorry to hear about the folks with no power. I took the wife to Monroe County on Saturday for an antique show and they were late starting because their power was out. We didn't know there was a state of emergency until we were already there and heard it on the radio. We didn't see any problems except power outages in Brockport and Chili.

Franz, you are right about oversizing. I can power my whole house with a 5 KW or so generator, and I only went that big so that if the fridge, well pump, and septic pump started at the same time I had a chance it would keep running. All my heating appliances burn natural gas, though.

Is equipment available (purchase outright or a local rental) that will figure out peak usage for motor startup, etc.?

dpm · Apr 8, 2003

Thanks for the information. I did find a 7KW (smallest size available) PTO generator from WINPOWER which is a bit more than the northern tool one.

Franz..I'd be interested in the Binghamton PTO generator information if you can dig it up.

gerard · Apr 8, 2003

franz,
Got a hookup question using a transfer switch. I know that is the correct and safest way to hook up a generator to do the whole house but that means I can't use that circuit as a welding circuit too correct? (If I understand how they work when you hook up to the grid that circuit is dead and when you connect to that circuit you're not hooked to the grid so if you wanted to have a welding outlet you'd have to run 2 separate circuits??)

Anonymous Poster · Apr 8, 2003

Gerard, there is no reason you cannot feed the whole house backwards thru the welder circuit.
It's a matter of SAFETY when you do that. You MUST be ABSOLUTELY certain the main breaker is open to isolate the entire house service from the incoming utility.

Anonymous Poster · Apr 8, 2003

OK guys, listen up. I don't have info on PTO units YET, but it's coming.
For those of you who are looking at generators, this site has more brands and information than just about anyplace.
http://www.southwestfastener.com/
They also have plenty of other toys, such as pressure washers.
Have fun researching.

bobsedor · Apr 8, 2003

I live in Binghamton and I'm not aware of the company that you are referring to!

Please post asap.

tractorhal · Apr 8, 2003

Gerard, You can back feed through the welder outlet but be real careful because you will have a cord with a male plug on both ends. If you plug it into the gen. first and it is generating the ends will be hot. Depending on amps look at ship to shore devices or pin and sleeve connectors. The pins will or can still be hot but they are protected by the housing. Expensive. Another reason you want your main breaker open, or disconnect open, is so you don't supply your power to everyone else.

Anonymous Poster · Apr 8, 2003

You can buy an Ampmeter or Amprobe at Grainger or other electrical supply houses that will tell you what your starting load is on each piece of equipment. You would measure the load when the equipment first starts. Then add them together. Another, more practical way to do it would be to run all equipment (with utility power on) that you would want to run off a generator. Shut off everything else in the house. Open your breaker box, if your comfortable doing so, and measure the load of each circuit. Add them together and that is your best way to size your generator. You can also look at each motor in your house, it should have a label on it that will tell you FLA (full load amps) and RLA (run load amps). The FLA number will indicate if the motor shaft was completely locked, what the motor would draw. RLA number will indicate what the motor will draw under "normal operating conditions" at the specified voltage and AC frequency. Almost all US home circuits are 120 or 240/220 volts with a frequency of 60 HZ. I work on some Cogeneration units and do some utility monitoring for School Districts and Colleges. Good luck.
Dave

Anonymous Poster · Apr 9, 2003

Here in Michigan we're finally getting power. Seems like the place I work was the only one in 10 miles. Today is Wednesday and it looks like Lapeer is all aglow again.

mikell