PTO Generator

Westonium · Nov 29, 2004

Has anyone purchased and used a PTO powered generator for emergency electrical backup for a home? I have a baby on the way and very dependent on electricity. We have a wood stove for heat, but no electricity = no water and there is a much increased chance of a number of busted pipes if the water doesn't move at all, and the water heaters being off.

Power doesn't get knocked out very often out here, but when it does it could be very bad for us. I've priced generators and I think I can afford to go that route, but I guess I am just concerned that there might be some really huge reason not to do it that I am unaware of. Anyone give me some relevant advice?

LarryD · Nov 29, 2004

I was looking at some of those online and thought the price for a 15kW was very reasonable compared to one with an engine. But after careful consideration I decided I really didn't need one.
I also live in the northwest and lose power a couple times a year on average, but usually not more than 24 hrs. My wood stove keeps the house warm and if I need water I drain it from my water heater...and it stays hot for a long time. If that were to run out I can also drain water from my pressure tank in the pumphouse. If those were to run out I have some 5gl water jugs I could fill at the volunteer firehouse. So between that and a camping cookstove we have faired all our power outages very well.
I suppose if I was looking at 3 day or more outages I would probably purchase some sort of generator. Just remember to isolate your generator from the power company side or you could kill somebody, a good transfer switch can make the transitions very fool proof.

Rip · Nov 29, 2004

This topic has been widely discussed and with an equaly wide variety of opinions as well. I'll just toss out a few thoughts:

While a tractor driven PTO generator has enough raw power to pretty much run your entire house, it is not ideal for several reasons. One is that it is very hard to regulate voltage and frequency with this set-up to keep within the +/-10% range that most home appliences require and some items require even closer tolerence than that.

A number of folks have found out the hard way that the money "saved" by trying to run a house on a PTO generator has been lost several time over by having to repair or replace costly items that were damaged by over/under voltage or frequency variations.

A better solution in my opinion is a dedicated standby natural or propane gas generator with automatic start up and transfer switch set up to opperate selected "primary" circuits such as heating system, well pump, refrigerator/freezer, and several other kitchen, bath, and TV & lights.

Generac, Honda, and Coleman have various models. This will also ensure that even if you are away the system will start and run with out your wife having to do anything. Even if you all are away, it will start and run to keep heat, refrigerator and such running without any intervention.

Just my thoughts..... others will chime in I am sure.

Congratulations on the new baby and good luck with whatever you choose.

ns_in_tex · Nov 29, 2004

I have one, and like it a lot. Yes you do have to get the tractor out and hook it up, but in my case, I like it better than having to keep something else working, or like I have seen in the past, will not start when needed. Normally my tractors are used enough, they always start.

I may not need it but once every few years, but when you need it, it is nice to have. If it were a once a month occurance, I might feel different.

I have had none of the other problems mentioned in some of the other post. Mine stays in the safe frequency range from no load to full load.

Here is a link to my setup.

LBrown59 · Nov 30, 2004

( This topic has been widely discussed and with an equaly wide variety of opinions as well. I'll just toss out a few thoughts:

While a tractor driven PTO generator has enough raw power to pretty much run your entire house, it is not ideal for several reasons. One is that it is very hard to regulate voltage and frequency with this set-up to keep within the +/-10% range that most home appliences require and some items require even closer tolerence than that.

A number of folks have found out the hard way that the money "saved" by trying to run a house on a PTO generator has been lost several time over by having to repair or replace costly items that were damaged by over/under voltage or frequency variations.

A better solution in my opinion is a dedicated standby natural or propane gas generator with automatic start up and transfer switch set up to opperate selected "primary" circuits such as heating system, well pump, refrigerator/freezer, and several other kitchen, bath, and TV & lights.

Generac, Honda, and Coleman have various models. This will also ensure that even if you are away the system will start and run with out your wife having to do anything. Even if you all are away, it will start and run to keep heat, refrigerator and such running without any intervention.

Just my thoughts..... others will chime in I am sure.

Congratulations on the new baby and good luck with whatever you choose.
)

1*it is not ideal for several reasons
2*A better solution in my opinion is a dedicated standby natural or propane gas generator with automatic start up

============================
1*Besides it ties up your tractor if you need it for something else.
2*I always thought it would neat to have a natural gas generator on a free gas well. This way no gas or electric bills to pay.
Anybody got such a such up??????
***************
GET THE BASICS HERE.

djradz · Nov 30, 2004

I have a 13 kw unit that sits on a "Carry All". I think it is ideal.
Advantages
No additional engine to maintain.
At 13 kw peak, 10 kw continuous, it can power the whole house. Last outage, I even had the AC running.
My TC 40D can easily drive the generator even when more than one appliance comes on at a time.
Using the tractor, which gets used weekly for other projects, I know the generator will work when needed.
Voltage regulation is excellent. Much better than both the smaller 5kw Honda and 7 kw Generac generators I've borrowed in the past. My power meter shows voltage regulation to be in the range of about 2% and Total Harmonic Distortion to be about 3%.

If your serious about a puchase, I'd look strongly at the similarly sized unit from Northern Tool.

ByronBob · Nov 30, 2004

This has been beaten to death and their are no clear cut advantages either way so I'll answer your question with another question. Do you have a set-up now to plug your house into? What are the typical outages like around you. 1 day, 2,3?? Could you live without your tractor while it's running the house?

Questions, questions, questions..............

A generator (portable) will get you by in most cases for the emergency type situations you speak of. If you need something bigger for more typical use go with the PTO. Unless your whole house is electric driven such as the H2O and furnace which need mega start up power to get going you could do fine going portable.

PTO's as mentioned from the boys require a little more knowledge on where the RPM's need to be to get the Htz to the right range. It's for us unknowledgeable people a little more difficult.

Soundguy · Nov 30, 2004

( I have a 13 kw unit that sits on a "Carry All". I think it is ideal.Advantages,No additional engine to maintain....
Voltage regulation is excellent. )

I have to agree. I purchased one of the northern tools 12kw/13kwsurge pto driven units, and also mounted it onto a carryall. Good points.. no extra engine to maintain, and it is easy to move around. My tractor can take that generator out inthe woods into places my truck can;t get.. or to places I'm not strong enough to carry a big gas generator, if I need power for tools, or for fencing.. etc.

I think some of the commonly worried about problems, like voltage regulation and frequency are either overstated.. or have become less of a problem with newer designs. ( I realize that some units do have active voltage and freq regulation and correction.. while others use capacitor regulation.. that said.. the brushless designs seem more robust.. even if using passive regulation technology).

For instance.. the new pto units northen sells are brushless, and suposedly won't 'die' ( loose magnetic field ) if you don't use them for extended periods of time like some models. Though they do say you should run it for a few minutes a month to flash off any collected moisture.

There is a gauge ont he side of the pto units.. it has a wide green zone with a 'dead on line, nd then red zones above and below. The unti doesn't even kick in and start making power till your pto is over 490rpm anyway, and according to my tach.. 538 rpm was the magic number for 12v and 60 cycles.

I have a vom that does freq counting, and did a few partial and close to full load tests on my genny, looking for voltage regulation, and frequency sensitivity. Using my freq counter and a good vom, I came up with the following results testing my genny, as well as a 5500 and a 6500 that we used to power my parents place during the 2 week period most floridians were without power.

The 5500w genny dropped voltage to about 202 and the water pump didn't like it... (brigs/tsc - no freq measurement, as the genny couldn't handle the rated load/surge startup ) the 6500 ( a techumseh/coleman) dropped from 238 to 218 and then settled down to 222-224.. dropped a couple hz.. otherwise ran good. Pto gen was 240 - 242, and dropped to 238 cycles were 60 - 61 This was using my 1952 ford 8n 4 cyl gasolene tractor to power it.. ( 26 ish hp when new.. probably closer to 23 now... ).

I think many of the problems with voltage/freq are not generator head based.. but rather engine dependent. If your engine / tractor has a very responsive, quick and precise governor, or has enough brute hp/stored flywheel energy to carry the load starts over without changing pto rpm.

I noticed one poster thought a self contained unit.. like a lp gas or diesel unit might have 'better' power. Here is what I saw. On the truck delivering my 13kw northern unit.. there was also a 27.5kw northern pto generator.. and a 27.5kw generator with diesel engine... the head on both the 27.5kw units were identical.. meaning power output was more dependent ont he engine capability.. not differences in the head. I'd hat to spend 8500$ to get the 27kw diesel engine combo because I thought it was goning to make cleaner or better power than the 2000$ 27kw pto generator, assuming I had the appropriate sized tractor to power it.

The tractor issue seems to be that most people don't want to tie up their tractor running the genny, when it could be doing storm cleanup. I have 2 thoughts on this.

1 during the many days of power outtages.. most people I saw did not run their gennies continously all day.. but rather just to pressure up the well.. or to do other taskes.. cook, etc. The vast majority of the time the genny was just setting. Same could be true for the tractor.. use it to power the genny when you need to.. then use the tractor for other uses in the mean time.

2 Get another tractor... Seems like one of the best arguments for a second tractor that I've come across yet. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Plus.. with two tractors.. that gives you a backup for all of your pto powered equipment. When the little gas job dies on the genny, you don't have any real options for getting it fixed iommediatly.. especially if it is a disaster situation like florida had.. all the small engine shops would be closed. With a pto gen.. if your tractor dies or is busy.. just grab the 2nd tractor.. or locate another tractor.. perhaps share power with a neighbor in need of a bath in exchange for some pto usage... ( We did see lots of people that had gennies powering their wells run a hose over to a neighbor with no power so they could at least have water..)

The price of the pto genny generally lets you get 2-3x the power for the same money over a self powered unit. That could mean the difference between just powering the well by itself, and then the microwave, tv, and fan later.. to having a hot bath, running water, fans, lights and tv, almost like you were still 'on-grid'.

So far i've been real happy with mine.

Soundguy

slowrev · Nov 30, 2004

Soundguy,
Good post. One thing I noticed when genny shopping is that specs on the units are very skimpy as to freq regulation, THD, etc. This lack of good consumer information makes it difficult to choose which one will best serve your needs. I wound up buying a stand alone unit, but will probably get a larger PTO unit within the next couple of years.

I think I will have to get another tractor for backup power. At least that is the excuse I will use with the wife unit /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ben

Soundguy · Nov 30, 2004

Funny you mention that. Northern was the only company I could find THD numbers for. And most places have no idea what form of voltage regulation is taking place. Though I did find one place onthe web that had pretty good ingo on their genny heads.. but no pricing. I emailed them twice.. got no response.. figured I'd better buy elsewhere, as if I needed tech or dealer support.. they would be just as likely to not answer my questions then.

Soundguy

Westonium · Nov 30, 2004

( Do you have a set-up now to plug your house into? What are the typical outages like around you. 1 day, 2,3?? Could you live without your tractor while it's running the house?
)
I do have a transfer switch that would supply part of the house. The well is actually 650 ft away, and on the same meter as the barn. I would be needing to install a transfer switch down at the well, and another at the house.

There have been outtages of many days in the past. They had very mild winters for the last 10 or so years too, but last year had 2 feet of snow (accumulated) in a few days. We are more prone to freezing rain than the surrounding valley.

Everything is electric. There is no gas line to power a generator, nor a giant propane tank. Once I get some alternative energy systems in place, I will sweat such things a bit less, but right now it just has me nervous.

I am not really worried about losing the tractor to the generator for a few days if it means having electricity vs. not.

I guess my biggest concern is freezing pipes and the lack of pumped water. I would probably run the generator for a few hours at the house, then move the tractor down to the well and run it there for a few hours.

I sure appreciate the input guys!

Eebbee · Nov 30, 2004

Hello Westonium,

I own a 15KW that I bought from the net for about half of what dealers were asking locally for a 10KW unit.

I used to have an 8KW gaz powered (still in the back of the garage) but the bloody thing would only start when I did not really need it, when I was starting it just to make it run.
Whenever it was the real deal there was nothing to do to get it started. The last straw was when my parents were house sitting and the 8KW would not start and whenver it did start it cost a fortune to run. One tanks per 6 hrs. Last serious power outage this think was sinking in $100/day of gas. A full day of tractor running would run me about one fifth of that or $20 /day.

My reasons to go PTO rather than self powered is I am like you no gaz (natural or propane) but additionnally I mounted the PTO generator on a home made carryall that carries a TiG welder, plasma cutter and compressor . This way I can basically cut and weld anything a few miles away from hydro. When not in use I back it up -the carryall- in my garage where I have a hole to slip a shaft through. The generator is inside and the tractor outside.

I got the transfer switch and a 50amps electrical box that covers exterior lights plus one light in each room, fridge, pump and heating as well computers, TVs sound system etc. All the electronics are on surge protected bars but I've never had any cycle issues. We obvioulsy do not run all at once when on generator but most of everything can work if you need it and it's really neat to be watching DVDs and enjoying hydro in a power outage.

Yes it does tie the tractor but if there is no hydro it most likely a storm w/ no school etc so no need to clear snow in a hurry.

In my opinion it's worth it just for the peace of mind.

Good luck with the baby

Eebbee

vetteman · Nov 30, 2004

I have a 13kw generator I bought from Northern Equipment . Trailer powershaftand generator was 1400$ half of what a local generator was . I can run whole house with it just as if we had power. If I need tractor I unhook generator for a while no big deal .

kennyd · Nov 30, 2004

Here is a dumb question...
The 12kw genny's need 24 PTO HP for full power output according to NorthernTools. My JD 4110 is rated at 17.?? PTO HP. But the tractor would be sitting still, so no power is needed to drive the tractor... Hence could you expect a liitle more HP from the PTO or is this wishfull thinking?

KiotiJohn · Nov 30, 2004

( The 12kw genny's need 24 PTO HP for full power output according to NorthernTools. My JD 4110 is rated at 17.?? PTO HP. But the tractor would be sitting still, so no power is needed to drive the tractor... Hence could you expect a liitle more HP from the PTO or is this wishfull thinking?
)
Pretty much wishful thinking. What you would get is a more constant 17 PTO HP if you're running at rated speed (RPM needed to get the stated HP). If you were to run the 12KW on your tractor, you could expect to get only 8.5KW power output. That's pretty generous actually, and the 12KW PTO gen. may be cheaper than buying a stand alone 8.5KW genset. Usually, you'll be running somewhere arounrd 540PTO RPM, depends on your tractor's rated speed. John

v8dave · Dec 1, 2004

( Here is a dumb question...
The 12kw genny's need 24 PTO HP for full power output according to NorthernTools. My JD 4110 is rated at 17.?? PTO HP. But the tractor would be sitting still, so no power is needed to drive the tractor... Hence could you expect a liitle more HP from the PTO or is this wishfull thinking?
)

Get the 12 KW unit.

Northern is being very conservative. They are using only 500 Watts per HP, or 67% efficiency. At 100% efficiency there are 746 watts per horse power. I doubt they are losing 246 Watts in the mechanical drive and heat losses in the generator. At 100% efficiency 17 HP yields 12,682 Watts, you probably won't get that, but you'll likely get more than 8.5 KW.

Soundguy, what do you figure you're getting per HP out of your Northern unit?

TOMLESCOEQUIP · Dec 1, 2004

I have the northern pto unit. Does anyone know where I can get a freq. meter to add on to it ?? It just came with the minimal volt meter guage( with the red & green areas) & it would be nice to fine tune the rpm to the proper freq. so I don't fry anything expensive..........Tom

djradz · Dec 1, 2004

Go for the frequency meter/indicator if you really think you need it, but I don't. Other than clocks and possibly a few other devices running a little fast, or slow, nothing will get cooked. The biggest problem for electrical equipment is when the voltage is way low, which happens with too small a generator or too small of wiring. Using a meter I found that at 540 rpms (at least according to the light on the dash of my TC 40D) I get 240 volts at 60.2 Hz. To get 60 Hz I had to back off the throttle slightly to something a little less than 540 and got 238 volts and about 59.9 to 60.1 Hz. Many pieces of equipment will even work fine at 50 Hz. Much is made that way because in Europe their system is 50 hz.

TOMLESCOEQUIP · Dec 1, 2004

I'll be running it with my TC33D & I'll watch the 540 indicator.............I just didn't want to fry a computer or the TV by not getting the gen dialed in just right. I checked the outputs with a VOM and they were OK voltage wise. The biggest drop should be when the well pump kicks in........I think I'll have plenty of capacity to run the household basics...............Tom

KiotiJohn · Dec 1, 2004

( I doubt they are losing 246 Watts in the mechanical drive and heat losses in the generator. At 100% efficiency 17 HP yields 12,682 Watts, you probably won't get that, but you'll likely get more than 8.5 KW.)
Dave, I hadn't thought of it that way. It would be interesting to know just how much one would get. I was planning on getting a 12KW and would have been satisfied with 8.5KW for my uses. Maybe it's even better. Thanks, John