rider7767
Platinum Member
I love my tractor, but it is the one thing I would change. Live PTO is much better.
Mowing PTO won't disengage when using brush hog
- Thread starter fsrtraveler
- Start date
- Views: 25906
k0ua
Epic Contributor
Agreed, either Live if a gear machine or Independent if Hydro or shuttle. But if it is a straight transmission PTO, you Have got to have an overrunning clutch, either built in or external, less you get pushed into something, or over a cliff.:shocked:
OP
fsrtraveler
New member
Thank you Tony. I see you have a CK20S and that is what I was looking for. So does your tractor stop on its own when you depress the main clutch before the brush hog stops spinning. On mine I have to press the brake hard and that will stop the mower and the brush hog at the same time and I have to do this before shifting.
My Kioti shop manual shows an overrunning clutch built in the unit but the USA Kioti office in NC says I don't have one and so does my dealer. I hate to buy something to add if I already have one built in. The tractor is under warranty so I prefer getting the dealer fix the problem if I have an overriding clutch built in as the manual shows.
My Kioti shop manual shows an overrunning clutch built in the unit but the USA Kioti office in NC says I don't have one and so does my dealer. I hate to buy something to add if I already have one built in. The tractor is under warranty so I prefer getting the dealer fix the problem if I have an overriding clutch built in as the manual shows.
rider7767
Platinum Member
Pictures are worth thousands of words. What about a YouTube?
CK20S PTO Override clutch: http://youtu.be/Xc4SZFLjJZs
Who ever you talked to is miss informed. Since the early 90s, tractor company could not sell tractors without a ROPS or with a direct drive through the drive line PTO. It has to be live or with a built in override clutch. Further more, it is a serious law suit waiting to happen. I work for the government and deal with OSHA all the time. Someone fed you a line of bull. I think the CK20S with manual transmission is the only tractor Kioto makes which has this setup anymore.
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rider7767
Platinum Member
K0ua, I think you are right on. I hate to think they will have to tear into that new tractor's transmission, but after looking into my repair manual, I don't see any other way.
LD1
Epic Contributor
certainly sounds like the ORC is messed up. A 2013 should still be under warranty. Contact the dealer.
After it is fixed, if it was mine, I'd put an external ORC on there to save wear and tear on the internal one. Cause next time it may not be uder warranty.
After it is fixed, if it was mine, I'd put an external ORC on there to save wear and tear on the internal one. Cause next time it may not be uder warranty.
OP
fsrtraveler
New member
I called the national Kioti office about my overriding clutch issue after I posted it in this forum and also emailed them with the following information from my Kioti "Shop Manual" for this tractor model "the page number that shows the internal overriding clutch is 4-9 in the CK20S Kioti Shop Manual. Item number 3 in the pictorial. It also has a notation below the pictorial describing the function of the internal overriding clutch. This notation is on page 4-10 Item C, and reads as follows " A one-way clutch is utilized on the PTO output shaft of the 6 x 2 gear transmission model tractor. The one way clutch transmits power in one direction only and is free wheeling in the other." The 6 x 2 is my tractor the CK20s, and if this statement were accurate, it would prevent the tractor from being driven by the momentum of the brush hog. Perhaps the CK20S Kioti Shop Manual, part number #SS30-W00 and printed Nov. 20011 is a misprint."
I got a response from the engineer at Kioti through the customer service department that told me that the manual is in error and that Kioti did take out the overriding clutch and did not correct the Shop Manual. My dealer did not know this and was relying on his national rep for information. By the way my local dealer has been very supportive with this issue helping me to resolve this issue but like myself has to rely on Kioti USA service support.
Bottom line, according to Kioti USA engineers in North Carolina Kioti took out the built in overriding clutch and did not tell us. They also don't provide the 1/4" hole through the PTO spline so there is no way to attach the external overriding clutch that costs about $50 and is currently about the only external overriding clutch available. I did finally find an overriding clutch with the quick disconnect and ordered it today but they are very rare. If you need one they can be had at "http://www.hoyetractor.com/PROD/search/OR-660.htm" for $65. What I find hard to believe is that in 2014 a tractor company would sell a tractor without an overriding clutch, then on top of that they don't put a hole through the PTO spline to allow connection of the most common type of overriding clutch available today. An internal overriding clutch is stronger, better lubricated, requires less maintenance and does not put an extra load on the external PTO shaft coming out of the back of the tractor.
This is a very unsafe practice and leaves Kioti open for a law suit. Apparently Kioti's product strategy does not feel the need for model CK20s, the new CK2510 and I believe their 30 HP model to have the ability to use a Brush Hog. At least to use a Brush Hog safely without being driven by the brush hog when pressing in the clutch.
As a final note I called all the Kioti dealers in two states (there are not many) when I was trying to determine if I had a built in overriding clutch as depicted in my shop manual and discovered almost all the Kioti dealers were new dealers with only months as a dealer, no experience on this issue and service personnel that did not even understand what an overriding clutch was. I guess I should have researched the Kioti product line in more detail prior to purchasing my tractor. I have had three Kubota's and they all have had a built in overriding clutch and the dealer network has always been able to provide complete service support. My only salvation with this ordeal is that my local dealer has helped me out as much as possible.
I got a response from the engineer at Kioti through the customer service department that told me that the manual is in error and that Kioti did take out the overriding clutch and did not correct the Shop Manual. My dealer did not know this and was relying on his national rep for information. By the way my local dealer has been very supportive with this issue helping me to resolve this issue but like myself has to rely on Kioti USA service support.
Bottom line, according to Kioti USA engineers in North Carolina Kioti took out the built in overriding clutch and did not tell us. They also don't provide the 1/4" hole through the PTO spline so there is no way to attach the external overriding clutch that costs about $50 and is currently about the only external overriding clutch available. I did finally find an overriding clutch with the quick disconnect and ordered it today but they are very rare. If you need one they can be had at "http://www.hoyetractor.com/PROD/search/OR-660.htm" for $65. What I find hard to believe is that in 2014 a tractor company would sell a tractor without an overriding clutch, then on top of that they don't put a hole through the PTO spline to allow connection of the most common type of overriding clutch available today. An internal overriding clutch is stronger, better lubricated, requires less maintenance and does not put an extra load on the external PTO shaft coming out of the back of the tractor.
This is a very unsafe practice and leaves Kioti open for a law suit. Apparently Kioti's product strategy does not feel the need for model CK20s, the new CK2510 and I believe their 30 HP model to have the ability to use a Brush Hog. At least to use a Brush Hog safely without being driven by the brush hog when pressing in the clutch.
As a final note I called all the Kioti dealers in two states (there are not many) when I was trying to determine if I had a built in overriding clutch as depicted in my shop manual and discovered almost all the Kioti dealers were new dealers with only months as a dealer, no experience on this issue and service personnel that did not even understand what an overriding clutch was. I guess I should have researched the Kioti product line in more detail prior to purchasing my tractor. I have had three Kubota's and they all have had a built in overriding clutch and the dealer network has always been able to provide complete service support. My only salvation with this ordeal is that my local dealer has helped me out as much as possible.
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
For rider7767 (post 14): Can you provide a reference for a legal requirement for the overrunning clutch? I don't doubt the requirement, I just don't know where to look.
For fsrtraveler: If Kioti is in violation of OSHA or legal requirements, burn them. Personally, I think you have a broken tractor and you are being fed a line of crap from the clowns in Wendell NC. This is not any kind of sight on tar heels in general. If I look at the online parts diagram (Parts Diagram) parts 12, 14, and 15 sure look like an over-running clutch to me. The parts diagram does not indicate any alternate configurations. We have all seen errors in Kioti documentation, but discontinuing this clutch would be awful stupid. I don't think Koreans are that stupid. It's a lot easier to believe the Kioti US people are lying. You still need to get that external clutch until this gets sorted out. As several folks have noted, this is dangerous and it's probably the reason you can't disengage the PTO.
For fsrtraveler: If Kioti is in violation of OSHA or legal requirements, burn them. Personally, I think you have a broken tractor and you are being fed a line of crap from the clowns in Wendell NC. This is not any kind of sight on tar heels in general. If I look at the online parts diagram (Parts Diagram) parts 12, 14, and 15 sure look like an over-running clutch to me. The parts diagram does not indicate any alternate configurations. We have all seen errors in Kioti documentation, but discontinuing this clutch would be awful stupid. I don't think Koreans are that stupid. It's a lot easier to believe the Kioti US people are lying. You still need to get that external clutch until this gets sorted out. As several folks have noted, this is dangerous and it's probably the reason you can't disengage the PTO.