alan40
Platinum Member
Man your in trouble! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Looks like he's one happy baby.
Take care
Take care
Pull that foot out of the grave
- Thread starter wroughtn_harv
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OP
wroughtn_harv
Super Member
His daddy's a gear head. His grandpa's a gear head. I'm glad he's a boy. If they'd had a girl I'd had to watch my language helping her build the car that kicks all the boy's butts. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
MossRoad
Super Moderator
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
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- 57,947
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- South Bend, Indiana (near)
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- Power Trac PT425 2001 Model Year
He's a cutie, Grandpa! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
OP
wroughtn_harv
Super Member
A little update on the cooker for the interested. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
I met with the managers and what they've got is a nice small stainless bar b que grill with a propane tank. It's a GE and it's for installing in a permanent location like a brick or rock outdoor set up.
But they've got their real interest in a six burner Kitchenmaid stainless cook top. It's nice.
They want to be able to use it inside for weekend brunch buffets. They're wanting something attractive and unique.
I can do attractive, well, cute. And unique is nothing but opportunity begging in my book.
But first they've got to get with the local health department and see what the rules to go by are. And Don, if you read this, how large a tank would we need to handle a six burner cook top for a couple of hours?
Right now I'm thinking it won't be a dawg that'll hunt, much less tree. If it does work out then we have the situation where the manager's an artist and wants total control of the design. That might be a hole in the bottom of the boat too big to allow floating in my marina. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I met with the managers and what they've got is a nice small stainless bar b que grill with a propane tank. It's a GE and it's for installing in a permanent location like a brick or rock outdoor set up.
But they've got their real interest in a six burner Kitchenmaid stainless cook top. It's nice.
They want to be able to use it inside for weekend brunch buffets. They're wanting something attractive and unique.
I can do attractive, well, cute. And unique is nothing but opportunity begging in my book.
But first they've got to get with the local health department and see what the rules to go by are. And Don, if you read this, how large a tank would we need to handle a six burner cook top for a couple of hours?
Right now I'm thinking it won't be a dawg that'll hunt, much less tree. If it does work out then we have the situation where the manager's an artist and wants total control of the design. That might be a hole in the bottom of the boat too big to allow floating in my marina. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Bird
Rest in Peace
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( my wife and I lived on the second floor of an apartment building. We had a small wooden balcony )</font>
The first three and a half years we were married, my wife and I were assistant managers of a 104 unit apartment complex and we, too, were on the second floor with such a balcony both front and rear of the apartment. We used a charcoal hibachi (I think that's the way it's spelled) and never had a problem.
However, when we moved back to town into an apartment nearly two years ago, I know the city has an ordinance prohibiting grills on the patios and balconies, and the lease agreement even included that information. And I'd guess at least 25% of the apartments (700 unit complex) had grills on the patios and balconies in plain sight. The manager said there was no enforcement unless someone caused a fire. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Does that sound logical and sensible to you? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
The first three and a half years we were married, my wife and I were assistant managers of a 104 unit apartment complex and we, too, were on the second floor with such a balcony both front and rear of the apartment. We used a charcoal hibachi (I think that's the way it's spelled) and never had a problem.
However, when we moved back to town into an apartment nearly two years ago, I know the city has an ordinance prohibiting grills on the patios and balconies, and the lease agreement even included that information. And I'd guess at least 25% of the apartments (700 unit complex) had grills on the patios and balconies in plain sight. The manager said there was no enforcement unless someone caused a fire. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Does that sound logical and sensible to you? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Bird, the problem with grills on a balcony has two issues.
First, the nature of balconies and prevailing breezes is such that invariably, the smoke from your grill exits your balcony and pours into the balcony, and the open door, above. This happens regardless of fuel.
Second, the issue with propane grills on balconies is, "How did the propane get there?" Especially if you live in a high rise, would you like someone to bring a potentially leaking propane tank into the elevator or stairwell, when you know that propane is heavier than air, settles to the bottom, and there is invariably a source of ignition at the bottom of that barrel...
If you live on the penthouse floor, and either have piped-in gas (natural or propane), or are willing to pull your tank up the outside of the building with a rope, then the grill may not be a problem. But, try getting that across to the condo board of directors...
First, the nature of balconies and prevailing breezes is such that invariably, the smoke from your grill exits your balcony and pours into the balcony, and the open door, above. This happens regardless of fuel.
Second, the issue with propane grills on balconies is, "How did the propane get there?" Especially if you live in a high rise, would you like someone to bring a potentially leaking propane tank into the elevator or stairwell, when you know that propane is heavier than air, settles to the bottom, and there is invariably a source of ignition at the bottom of that barrel...
If you live on the penthouse floor, and either have piped-in gas (natural or propane), or are willing to pull your tank up the outside of the building with a rope, then the grill may not be a problem. But, try getting that across to the condo board of directors...
Harv, neither GE nor Kitchenaid make their own built-in grills. And, in my opinion, neither is up to the standard of decent residential use, let alone commercial use. These grills are typically sold by appliance dealers, not grill stores, and in my experience, the support and service from appliance stores is sorely lacking -- they might understand washing machines and microwaves, but they don't understand gas grills.
Some of the brands I would deem worthy include ProFire, DCS, Lynx, Dynasty, FireMagic and, at the upper end of the price range (but probably not worth it), Viking.
Some of the brands I would deem worthy include ProFire, DCS, Lynx, Dynasty, FireMagic and, at the upper end of the price range (but probably not worth it), Viking.
alan40
Platinum Member
That's to bad Harv. My second idea was to do a stagecoach shape. Sorry I took so long getting back but my monitor broke and it took awhile to get the replacement from a certain company.
Take care
Take care
<font color="blue"> And Don, if you read this, how large a tank would we need to handle a six burner cook top for a couple of hours? </font>
Oops, missed this question when I responded earlier. What I do, is do the math. There's about 100,000 BTU's per hour per gallon of propane. Propane weighs 4.2 pounds per gallon, so there's about 24,000 BTU's per pound.
Determine the max BTU's of each burner. A typical burner might be anywhere from 10,000 to 30,000 per burner. Assume 15,000 BTUs - pretty typical. Therefore, a 6 burner grill, running wide open, will use 90,000 BTU's per hour, or will pretty much empty a 20# cylinder (about 450,000 BTU) in less than 5 hours.
But, there are some other factors involved. First of all, it's pretty unlikely anyone would use a 6 burner grill wide open for the entire cooking time, unless they really want crispy critter cooking. So, it's a matter or interpolation as to how many BTU's are actually being used.
There's another factor -- which gets pretty technical. Propane is stored in the tank as a liquid under pressure. It's used as a vapor. What happens is as some vapor is used, the pressure decreases, allowing the liquid to boil and create more vapor. The boiling point is about -43 degrees F. It gets the heat necessary to boil by absorbing it through the cylinder walls from the surrounding area.
As long as the vapor is not being used up too fast, the process of boiling to create more vapor can keep up with consumption. But, if it's too cold outside (less than 50 degrees F.), and the burners are using the vapor too fast, the heat from the surrounding air is pulled in even faster than can be maintained. The wall of the cylinder gets really, really cold, actually forming a rime of ice on the outside of the tank. The process "locks up" from lack of heat, the liquid no longer boils, and the vapor is no longer supplied.
What makes this whole process tricky is that the heat is only absorbed through the wetted area of the cylinder. Thus, when a cylinder is full, and almost the entire surface is wetted, there's plenty of area in which to absorb heat. As the cylinder empties, the wetted area gets smaller and smaller, and the more the likelihood the process will lock up.
This often happens to roofers, for example, whose tar pots burn so hot, and use propane so fast, that even a large, 100 pound cylinder will lock up when it gets too much below, say, 1/4. It also happens to large, industrial boilers, even when they are withdrawing from a 1,000 gallon tank, when the weather is very cold.
The answer for large applications is a heating process for the tank, often a type of electric blanket. The answer for small applications is to use a larger tank, in order to delay the lock up as much as possible. Some grill companies, for example, recommend a 40# cylinder with their larger grills, for this reason.
For a commercial application, a 40# cylinder will take care of all normal needs, even with 120,000 BTU grill. While a 20# cylinder would probably lock up at 2 - 3 hours, even though it still has 1 - 2 hours of propane left, a 40# cylinder wouldn't lock up until 6 - 7 hours.
There. Now you know more about propane than you wanted to know. But, I saw one of the docs today for a followup, and I'm not doing so well - ordered me to complete couch potato status, which means that I have more time than ever to wear people out with interminably long answers. I promise to limit it to only things I know something about, so you probably won't see it too often.
And please, no Hank Hill jokes...
Oops, missed this question when I responded earlier. What I do, is do the math. There's about 100,000 BTU's per hour per gallon of propane. Propane weighs 4.2 pounds per gallon, so there's about 24,000 BTU's per pound.
Determine the max BTU's of each burner. A typical burner might be anywhere from 10,000 to 30,000 per burner. Assume 15,000 BTUs - pretty typical. Therefore, a 6 burner grill, running wide open, will use 90,000 BTU's per hour, or will pretty much empty a 20# cylinder (about 450,000 BTU) in less than 5 hours.
But, there are some other factors involved. First of all, it's pretty unlikely anyone would use a 6 burner grill wide open for the entire cooking time, unless they really want crispy critter cooking. So, it's a matter or interpolation as to how many BTU's are actually being used.
There's another factor -- which gets pretty technical. Propane is stored in the tank as a liquid under pressure. It's used as a vapor. What happens is as some vapor is used, the pressure decreases, allowing the liquid to boil and create more vapor. The boiling point is about -43 degrees F. It gets the heat necessary to boil by absorbing it through the cylinder walls from the surrounding area.
As long as the vapor is not being used up too fast, the process of boiling to create more vapor can keep up with consumption. But, if it's too cold outside (less than 50 degrees F.), and the burners are using the vapor too fast, the heat from the surrounding air is pulled in even faster than can be maintained. The wall of the cylinder gets really, really cold, actually forming a rime of ice on the outside of the tank. The process "locks up" from lack of heat, the liquid no longer boils, and the vapor is no longer supplied.
What makes this whole process tricky is that the heat is only absorbed through the wetted area of the cylinder. Thus, when a cylinder is full, and almost the entire surface is wetted, there's plenty of area in which to absorb heat. As the cylinder empties, the wetted area gets smaller and smaller, and the more the likelihood the process will lock up.
This often happens to roofers, for example, whose tar pots burn so hot, and use propane so fast, that even a large, 100 pound cylinder will lock up when it gets too much below, say, 1/4. It also happens to large, industrial boilers, even when they are withdrawing from a 1,000 gallon tank, when the weather is very cold.
The answer for large applications is a heating process for the tank, often a type of electric blanket. The answer for small applications is to use a larger tank, in order to delay the lock up as much as possible. Some grill companies, for example, recommend a 40# cylinder with their larger grills, for this reason.
For a commercial application, a 40# cylinder will take care of all normal needs, even with 120,000 BTU grill. While a 20# cylinder would probably lock up at 2 - 3 hours, even though it still has 1 - 2 hours of propane left, a 40# cylinder wouldn't lock up until 6 - 7 hours.
There. Now you know more about propane than you wanted to know. But, I saw one of the docs today for a followup, and I'm not doing so well - ordered me to complete couch potato status, which means that I have more time than ever to wear people out with interminably long answers. I promise to limit it to only things I know something about, so you probably won't see it too often.
And please, no Hank Hill jokes...
Junkman
Super Member
Don...... the body might be in for a R&R, but the brain still is as functional as ever. You are right..... more information that I needed, but interesting any way. Get some rest and keep us entertained in the meantime. Get better fast..... the tractor misses you.
