Thanks for jumping in there. With all due respect to jjcc246, I probably should have better clarified whether I was coming out of a subpanel vs main panel. To be clear, I put in a 4-wire 2/0 AWG feed from the main panel to the subpanel in the new garage. The welder receptacle is wired off the subpanel with #6 3-wire + ground. In the subpanel, red and black hot leads go to the 50a double breaker, bare copper to ground bar and white neutral to the UN-bonded neutral bus bar. I wasn't really thinking of connecting the white neutral to the receptacle ground terminal, not good. Rather, I was seeking confirmation that the neutral wire just goes unused on the receptacle end. If yes, is proper protocol to connect white to the neutral bus in the subpanel and simply nut off the other end? Now, if this is the case when installing from a SUBPANEL, why wouldn't I want to use a #6 2-wire + ground (if there is such a thing), or put in a conduit and pull only what wire I need? Seems silly to waste the copper. Thx again for watching out, safety first.
Q.) re: 220v welder plugs
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rambler
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Inspector507
I have a question about running wire for a welder.
If I were to run #6 three wire from a 50 amp 220 volt breaker in my main panel to a 50 amp receptacle and in the main panel the red wire goes to one hot leg and the black goes to the other hot leg and the ground wire goes to the main box ground bus that is bonded to the neutral bus by the box bonding screw, what is the problem with wiring the third wire (ground wire) to the neutral bus in this case? This is something I have never been quite clear on. In kitchen stoves they wire this way because there is 120 volt devices in a stove and they use one of the hot legs and the neutral to get the 120 volts.
This thread is going to make me open up my panel to see exactly how I did wire my welder plug because I do not remember.
Farwell )</font>
The neutral wire is part of any 120v circut. It will be considered 'hot' and carrying a load any time a 120v device is being used. This is part of the electrical curcit.
The 'ground' curcuit is, ideally, never used. It is there to prevent fires or melted wires or killing shocks if things go wrong. GFI's use it. It really never is used if things always go perfectly. It should never be 'hot' unless there is a serious problem & is being used for it's safety feature.
If you wire the neutral & ground wires together in any place other than _once_ at the main entrance/box, you defeat the purpose of the ground wire. It can very effectively become energised as it ends up carrying the 'neutral' load and you are energising all your exposed metal. As well if the neutral wire goes bad you will never notice it, as the ground wire will happily take over & become your nuetral.
Any of those situations totally & completely defeats the point of having the ground wire path.
So, you need to know when to bond and when not to bond the ground wire. Only once, or you end up with 2 competing neutral paths, and no ground path at all.
This doesn't help you _do_ wiring, but it is pretty much _what_ the theory of the different wires is.
Ground & neutral are totally different and serve different purposes, and can only be bonded at one point to work effectively. Bonded at several places, and the ground no longer is effective, and the neutral can be compromised as to how it works without knowing it. Both situations are electrical traps waiting to hurt someone.
--->Paul
I have a question about running wire for a welder.
If I were to run #6 three wire from a 50 amp 220 volt breaker in my main panel to a 50 amp receptacle and in the main panel the red wire goes to one hot leg and the black goes to the other hot leg and the ground wire goes to the main box ground bus that is bonded to the neutral bus by the box bonding screw, what is the problem with wiring the third wire (ground wire) to the neutral bus in this case? This is something I have never been quite clear on. In kitchen stoves they wire this way because there is 120 volt devices in a stove and they use one of the hot legs and the neutral to get the 120 volts.
This thread is going to make me open up my panel to see exactly how I did wire my welder plug because I do not remember.
Farwell )</font>
The neutral wire is part of any 120v circut. It will be considered 'hot' and carrying a load any time a 120v device is being used. This is part of the electrical curcit.
The 'ground' curcuit is, ideally, never used. It is there to prevent fires or melted wires or killing shocks if things go wrong. GFI's use it. It really never is used if things always go perfectly. It should never be 'hot' unless there is a serious problem & is being used for it's safety feature.
If you wire the neutral & ground wires together in any place other than _once_ at the main entrance/box, you defeat the purpose of the ground wire. It can very effectively become energised as it ends up carrying the 'neutral' load and you are energising all your exposed metal. As well if the neutral wire goes bad you will never notice it, as the ground wire will happily take over & become your nuetral.
Any of those situations totally & completely defeats the point of having the ground wire path.
So, you need to know when to bond and when not to bond the ground wire. Only once, or you end up with 2 competing neutral paths, and no ground path at all.
This doesn't help you _do_ wiring, but it is pretty much _what_ the theory of the different wires is.
Ground & neutral are totally different and serve different purposes, and can only be bonded at one point to work effectively. Bonded at several places, and the ground no longer is effective, and the neutral can be compromised as to how it works without knowing it. Both situations are electrical traps waiting to hurt someone.
--->Paul
Inspector507
Super Member
<font color="blue"> why wouldn't I want to use a #6 2-wire + ground </font>
You could have, the white wire serves no purpose in this circuit. Just connect it to the neutral buss if you want, and cap it off at the other end.
You could have, the white wire serves no purpose in this circuit. Just connect it to the neutral buss if you want, and cap it off at the other end.
Inspector507
Super Member
I personally have never seen one that you'd ever use, so I'm not going to be the one holding my breath until you find one /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
hitekcountry
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<font color="blue"> GFI’s us it </font>
Actually no. GFI or GFCI devices do not need ground as part of its function. GFCI devices do what they do by measuring the balance of current on the black and white wires. An imbalance in excess of 5ma and the GFCI trips (opens) and shuts down the circuit.
Fred
Actually no. GFI or GFCI devices do not need ground as part of its function. GFCI devices do what they do by measuring the balance of current on the black and white wires. An imbalance in excess of 5ma and the GFCI trips (opens) and shuts down the circuit.
Fred
Lol, that probably made your day. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Is it 330a and higher welders that use 'em? Admittedly, I am early on the electrical and welder learning curves and I know it's guys like me that gives you fits or chuckles or both! But I appreciate the help and can take a whole lot of good-natured ribbing to ensure I do it right the first time. Hey who knows, like the dryers, at least if they change up the welder plugs for any reason before I die I got it covered.
Now I may be digging a deeper hole here, but actually there are other good reasons I thought I might want that 4th wire. I have access to a large ceramic kiln that the wifey is drooling over and I believe that might be 4 wire plug based on what I was told. And, I am still trying to figure a way to work generator backup for the house and shop into the new garage plan. Maybe backfeed a 50a 12 circuit transfer switch located at the house panel (with the appropriate main service disconnect, of course) from the garage subpanel by plugging into this receptacle outlet, in which case I believe I'll need the neutral. No I have not researched this thoroughly yet either, just phishing for ideas now, but at first blush it seems like that might be a way to keep the noisy generator and fuel away from the house and save the cost of another 220v receptacle. But, like I said, I'm all ears if there's a better way.
Now I may be digging a deeper hole here, but actually there are other good reasons I thought I might want that 4th wire. I have access to a large ceramic kiln that the wifey is drooling over and I believe that might be 4 wire plug based on what I was told. And, I am still trying to figure a way to work generator backup for the house and shop into the new garage plan. Maybe backfeed a 50a 12 circuit transfer switch located at the house panel (with the appropriate main service disconnect, of course) from the garage subpanel by plugging into this receptacle outlet, in which case I believe I'll need the neutral. No I have not researched this thoroughly yet either, just phishing for ideas now, but at first blush it seems like that might be a way to keep the noisy generator and fuel away from the house and save the cost of another 220v receptacle. But, like I said, I'm all ears if there's a better way.
