Question about high frequency start up

[MrBobcat230]

This my or may not be a dumb question. I've been reading up on tig welders downloading manuals to help me make a decision. Any way when I get to the parts about the high frequency start it looks like they suggest you ground every piece of metal in the workshop. Is this really necessary ? What happens if you don't?

 

[RPW]

Noise in electronics primarily. I personally don't worry about it much. On my Miller econotig has HF start. About the only precaution would be to make sure you don't become part of the circuit. I've gotten some nasty surprises. Good gloves are a definite.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Mr. Bobcat,
HF can do strange things. One thing you need to be aware of...Any AC/DC Tig unit that is a transformer based machine has continuous HF.

In laymens terms, the separate grounding is to drain off the HF Voltage that builds up. HF likes to jump across circuits in units and find its own path to ground. It can mess with internal circuitry as well. The grounding screw on the back of many units, gives the HF buildup a place to drain.

IF the company recommends it, then, I would use it. HF emissions can be greater by having poorly gapped points or circuits that are poorly designed.It can even kill your own machine. It doesn't take much, but a good wire should stay attached if a ground is recommended. The ground is more of an "earth" and should not be run back to the panel box...unless you want "real" problems.

Typically, inverters that use HF for starting, have HF engaged for 2-5 seconds at most. They are likely to cause less severe interference.

 

[MrBobcat230]

Thanks for the replies. The 3 welders I am interested in are the miller Diversion 180 , Dynasty 200 and the Syncrowave 200. So far the Syncrowave 200 is in the lead. It seems to be the best bang for my buck and for my intended uses. :thumbsup:

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

The Synchrowave will give you the most problems with HF interference.

 

[4shorts]

First of all I don't think there's any dumb questions. We're all here to learn and asking questions is an essential way to get the answers.

I run a Miller Dynasty 200 DX. My shop has a main computer in the office on the other side of the main shops wall and when using HF there are times and it's not often that the monitor will get a few lines going through it but there very faint at best.

There are also times when I have to go out with the machine to do a mobile repair such as st an egg grading station and that place is full of computerized equipment so I turn off the high frequency (you can do that with the Miller Dynasty 200DX) and the machine switches back to "Scratch Arc" That's one of the features I like about the Miller Dynasty 200 DX. By turning off the HF I know that the companies computerized equipment is safe and I don't cause any unnecessary damage to it.

My Dynasty paid for it's self in the first four months I had it. Just a fabulous piece of engineering. :thumbsup:

 

[MrBobcat230]

Thanks 4 Shorts for the reply. I would love to buy the dynasty but, it's an awfully expensive machine. I'm still debating with myself if that kind of cash is justified for a hobbyist. The advantages of a inverter machine are hard to ignore. Lower power draw, no maintenance and better weld characteristics. Not to mention it's got more settings on it than I'll ever use. I've been hanging out on Cyberweld.com quite a bit pricing welder packages vs. separate components. No matter what I end up with I think I will sink a separate grounding rod at least for the wiring conduits and welding table (when I build one).

 

[4shorts]

Thanks 4 Shorts for the reply. I would love to buy the dynasty but, it's an awfully expensive machine. I'm still debating with myself if that kind of cash is justified for a hobbyist. The advantages of a inverter machine are hard to ignore. Lower power draw, no maintenance and better weld characteristics. Not to mention it's got more settings on it than I'll ever use. I've been hanging out on Cyberweld.com quite a bit pricing welder packages vs. separate components. No matter what I end up with I think I will sink a separate grounding rod at least for the wiring conduits and welding table (when I build one).

Your more than welcome. I know what you mean about the cost. It's different for me because I can make a living with my Dynasty. The Dynasty has the DVI system built into it so I also added the Miller MVP to my Dynasty so I can take it almost anywhere and hook it up to 110 or 220 single or even three phase just by unscrewing a plug and attaching another one. I added some info on that as well just in case you haven't heard of it before. I'm not sure if other manufacturers use or have that system on there units.

The Dynasty do have a pile of settings but this thing sure get the job done. I use the foot pedal most of the time but do have a thumb control as well that I will use if I have to get somewhere that my hind leg won't reach the foot control

Inverters are the way to go. I've never had a problem with any of mine. It's light, it's powerful, very reliable and it welds and welds very great.

I'm not in any way affiliated with Mark or Everlast but if your looking for good value with a outstanding warranty backed by technical support I'd look at the Everlast products. I've never seen one or even used one but the pricing appears to be very reasonable. Just a thought. Good luck with your hunt. Hope you find a really nice unit for yourself.



Millers MVP:

MVP Power Cord

To provide ease-of-use and save time, Miller designed its exclusive MVP power cord adapters. When changing voltage, additional tools are usually necessary, but not with MVP power cord adapters. With the MVP power cord adapters, it takes only 30 seconds to change from 115 VAC to 230 VAC because everything the user needs is found directly inside the plug. The Millermatic DVI comes with both 15 amp/115 volt and 50 amp/230 volt adapter plugs and optional 20 amp/115 volt and 50 amp/230 volt foot adapter plugs can be purchased from any Miller Welding Distributor.

All you need to do is choose the MVP adapter plug that matches the power receptacle and simply connect it to the DVI power cord. There's no need to change power jumper links manually. It's really that easy to change voltage with the DVI.

 

[automech]

I have a Syncrowave 180. It only uses HF to start the arc when welding on AC. I have the manual picture that shows everything in the shop grounded but I did not do it. I have no problems except one GFI next to the machine outlet pops it's breaker. I have computors, tv, etc. and have never had a problem. The 180 is a nice machine.

 

[MrBobcat230]

Thanks again 4 Shorts. I am familiar with the M.V.P. plug set up miller has. I purchased a Millermatic 211 a few months ago and am very happy with that welder. I started out with a Lincon SP100 that I had for many years but, wanted something with more power. I'm sure the Everlast welders are good machines but,I think I will be sticking with blue from now on. Besides I live not to far from Appleton Wi. (were Millers are built) .

 

[MrBobcat230]

I have a Syncrowave 180. It only uses HF to start the arc when welding on AC. I have the manual picture that shows everything in the shop grounded but I did not do it. I have no problems except one GFI next to the machine outlet pops it's breaker. I have computors, tv, etc. and have never had a problem. The 180 is a nice machine.[/QUOT

The one thing I am wondering about the Snycrowave is the power consumption. The gent's over on Welding Web say they like to use a lot of power. I wouldn't be welding everyday but, it is a concern. Really how bad does it hurt the power bill?

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Mr. Bobcat,

The syncro 250 is a powerhog, in relation to a machine like the Dynasty200 or Everlast 250. If I remember right, the syncro 250 on straight 220/240, you'll need almost 100 amps. That's quite alot of power at maximum amps. The dynasty draws about 1/3 of that and the Everlast 250 EX about 1/2.

Yes, it will make a power bill difference if you are on a project for any length of time. I can see my bill jump when I have large projects with any of transformer welders, but my inverters make a much smaller ripple in the monthly bill. With transformers, I have had as much as a 75.00 month jump just at my home based shop. I know its unscientific, but I get a recap of how the bill runs from year to year, month to month, and you can see a visible jump in the bar graph.

Small projects, if that is your nature should give you only 30 or so dollar a month boost in your bill with a transformer machine, so it probably isn't going to be a big deal for you.

 

[MrBobcat230]

Thanks for the reply Mark. I was considering the Syncrowave 200 but now I looking a little harder at the Dynasty.It might be worth the extra cash. Thanks everybody:thumbsup:

 

[redneckexplorer]

I would go with one of the American welders for sure. If they are too expensive, look around for an old lincoln Tig300/300 they are power hungry, but they are single phase and will last forever and parts are available. And Lincoln is about the best company to deal with as far as parts and help. They will still send you prints and schematics on the old obsolete machines, for free. Do you think Everlast will be around that long? Maybe China will have totally taken us over by then, I hope we wake up before then. I also think its discouraging that this forum is funded and harrassed by a China welder company. Everlast? Give me a break....

Just my redneck 2 cents.

PS Back to the original question I would ground it as well as the Mfr. recommends and then better. HF can cause problems. I have one of the old Lincoln Tig 300/300 I have it grounded well. And have no problems. It was built in the 60's and it will also do scratch or HF start.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Redneck,
I guess you live up to the worst connotation of your name. We don't harass the forum, we sponsor it. Where's big red or blue? You don't find them here. They have little regard for sponsoring places like this. Because I work for a company that sources product from China, doesn't mean my advice concerning grounding of High Frequency units is ANY less valid. If you aren't aware, we are a US based and owned company with international distribution. Our product comes from China, which by the way Lincoln of which I am a proud owner, also has much of its product come from China, Mexico and Italy. Much of the Italian stuff these days are crammed with Chinese components. And the Lincoln Invertecs, equivalents of the Dynasty, are Italian built( You'll find a heavy leaning of Chinese components in Blue as well). If you haven't followed my posts, I am just as apt to post in other sections for input and help on farm equipment and tractors as well. I wasn't trying to make many comments about Everlast exclusively, but you give more coverage to the company than I would have in this section.

Do you find it discouraging that any tractor company on this board sponsors this forum too? They're mostly foreign made too, much of the John Deere line. Agco is based in my homestate, but lets not even pretend about that company being US product.

 

[4shorts]

We don't harass the forum, we sponsor it. Where's big red or blue? You don't find them here.

Your absolutely right Mark and I for one am happy that your here. You give great advise and I personally think you have a nice product. I've never heard anything bad about a Everlast product and I'm around enough forums to know.

As far as anything made or built in China. It's time we all got our heads out of our you know where. Everything we purchase has some affiliation with China.

just the other day I was working on a "American" made Victory motorcycle. I pulled the rear wheel off and noticed something. Yes, the rim was made in China and I'll add it was a very well built rim.

I know a lot of us feel threatened by Chinese built stuff but face it. It's built in China under the supervision of the American company that there working for so that the cost will be lower for the companies that use Chinese labor. It's how companies stay In business.

Maybe if we all didn't purchase Chinese items we could revert back to just buying American made products but I for one could never afford it if it went back to that.