Quoting a high tensile fence job

[mwemaxxowner]

Until a few months ago, I got roughly 10-20 hours of overtime a week. COVID finally caught up with Lowe's, and consequently us, their treated lumber supplier. I went to strictly only 40 hours immediately, but hey I'm still working, and thankful for it!

This all happened right after buying my tractor. So I took on an extra bill and had a big cut in pay. Since I'm off 3 days a week now I've been picking up some side work wherever possible. I grew up in a family of tradesmen and am an avid DIYer and picked up a lot of skills from watching Pawpaw, Dad, and my uncles.

So far I've been able to use my tractor to AT LEAST make the tractor payment for itself. I worked as a commercial landscaper for about 10 years and one of the services I've been advertising is fence installation. I've installed a lot of wooden privacy fence, a little vinyl privacy fence, and a little metal fence in the landscaping business.

Long story short, I just got a request for a high tensile fence job. I chatted with the fella, and explained I have never done it or been around it, but I'm sure I can do it, as long as he understands I don't have any experience and I'll be learning as I go. He's done it plenty but I think his old bones won't let him any longer. He understands my limited experience, but he also loves just a few miles from where I grew up and has known me all my life. He knows I'll work hard, I'm a quick study, and it'll be top notch before I collect. He's going to give me all sorts of advice, I'm sure.

All that said, I have NO idea how to price it. I live in a podunk (poor) rural area, if that helps narrow down where on the scale it should be. What is the range of pricing for a high tensile fence installation? I'm meeting with him Tuesday to look at the site and go over it all, and figure out exactly what he wants.

 

[Diggin It]

Is he buying the materials and you doing the labor?

Or are you buying everything and looking to do a mark-up?

 

[ponytug]

If you can get him to advise you on how to do it, and you think he knows his stuff, I would offer to do it at cost on materials and a discount on the labor, but with the quote including X hours of teaching on his part. I.e. open ended quote @$Y/hr, so he is incentivized to help you get it done quickly.

Actual costing is a little hard because the tools for the job make a big difference on the time. Do you have spool unwinders, tensioning devices (are they manual or hydraulic or tractor powered)? What do you have for laying out straight fence lines? Post drivers, augers? Then there is the job itself; How many strands, is the land level, how many gates are there, how many bends, corners, water crossings, ....?

I would look at a few high tensile fence videos to give yourself an idea of what you are stepping into. It is fun, but different, or at least I think so. I also think it is one of those red/green/blue/orange things where people have strongly held beliefs about what the best is.

I hope that it works out.

All the best,

Peter

P.S. I bought a whole bunch of tractor accessories a decade ago when someone around here offered me a neighborly discount on three board fence at $80/ft, unpainted.

 

[Doofy]

Should be a fun project and not to difficult. Google "High Tensile Fence".

 

[mwemaxxowner]

If you can get him to advise you on how to do it, and you think he knows his stuff, I would offer to do it at cost on materials and a discount on the labor, but with the quote including X hours of teaching on his part. I.e. open ended quote @$Y/hr, so he is incentivized to help you get it done quickly.

Actual costing is a little hard because the tools for the job make a big difference on the time. Do you have spool unwinders, tensioning devices (are they manual or hydraulic or tractor powered)? What do you have for laying out straight fence lines? Post drivers, augers? Then there is the job itself; How many strands, is the land level, how many gates are there, how many bends, corners, water crossings, ....?

I would look at a few high tensile fence videos to give yourself an idea of what you are stepping into. It is fun, but different, or at least I think so. I also think it is one of those red/green/blue/orange things where people have strongly held beliefs about what the best is.

I hope that it works out.

All the best,

Peter

P.S. I bought a whole bunch of tractor accessories a decade ago when someone around here offered me a neighborly discount on three board fence at $80/ft, unpainted.

A lot of that I can't answer until I visit with him Tuesday. He definitely knows his stuff.

I am assuming they will have the materials delivered, but if I go pick them up obviously I will need to take that into consideration.

I've watched a few videos already, and read a few tutorials. Doesn't look too hard and it'll be a nice skill to get under my belt I think. And I hope within his farming/ranching circle I will be able to get some recommendations and drum up more business if it goes well.

I'll be partnering with a friend of mine who has a 25 HP tractor. He's installed a few of these before but never for a paying customer, so he's at a loss on how to charge (I was expecting there to be an average "per foot" way to charge. That's how we do privacy fence). My friend has a spool to dispense the wires as we pull them, but the tensioner and any other tools I'll need to buy. I'll be adding those tools to my arsenal for personal use and maybe making money in the future so I don't consider that part of the cost of the job.

I have 2 2 stroke augers and good ole fashioned post hole diggers. Depending on the size I might consider renting a 3 point auger (that I would charge for). I'm sure we can get it done with my 2 stroke augers though.

I do want to charge accordingly for my experience, or lack thereof, but I also want to know how it would typically be quoted if I had done it and didn't need guidance. (Assuming the site is reasonably ready to fence, not needing too much grading or clearing to be ready.)


I don't know how many strands yet, or how he wants his corners built (I'm seeing several different ways). I don't know the condition of the land and I have string lines for laying off posts. Is there any other way? (Probably gonna regret that question)

 

[Birdhunter1]

First thing with high tensile fence is you have to have an unwinder, do not cut the bands loose on a coil if it isn't in one or you just wasted the entire coil of wire.
Largely HT wire will go up just like barbed wire, you don't staple it tight and you don't tension it on the corners you tension it in the middle with a spring and a strainer. The reason for not stapling the wire tight is because when you tension it you want it to slide in what is holding it to the posts.

You can go long distances between posts depending on terrain, I like 30' on flatter ground, 20' on hills. Steel t posts are perfectly fine to use but you have to build corners stout, directional changes will need a full out braced structure, they make a duckbill device instead of using posts in a dip. High tensile when tensioned will move a post if it has side or up pressure.

I have a hydraulic post driver and I shoot for a rate of $10 to drive a post (corners and t posts). This figure covers my layout and design time.

If I'm getting materials I figure on 15% markup, I prefer customers to get the post themselves if they can as it saves them a little bit of money, saves me time and if I can't fit all the materials and my tractor on the trailer it then saves me a trip. I like to get the strainers, insulators, crimp sleeves, staples and all the other hardware myself.

Tool wise you'll need a spinning jenny/unwinder, crimping tool for barrel crimps (or learn to tie the wire), high tensile wire cutters (the multi purpose fencing tool doesn't begin to cut ht wire).

Above and beyond that the time involved in running wire is about the same time as barbed wire so if you've done fencework you can probably figure your time out easily. I would almost venture to say HT wire is less time to run than barbed wire due to the fact you will have less posts to attach wire to.

The big question is, what is the guy wanting to fence in or fence out? Are the wires all hot (I'd make one a grounded wire, usually the top one as it is the one most likely to have deer damage). For horses (which is what I have and done the most ht wire fencing of) I find 3 strands at 18", 36" and 54" works well and I make the middle one hot, this works for good pastured trail horses with good pasture, if you are looking to fence in cattle, young horses or goats you will need to add more strands.

 

[Birdhunter1]

Instead of using string lines on an ht fence I build my corners, make a run of wire and tie it to one corner with enough slack I can later slide it up and the other end I cut and use a tension strainer to tighten it and there you have a wire length run and your guide wire for your posts. If you auger a hole you might want to set a lean to your corner post leaning out and jab a big rock down in the hole as the ground will soften and the post will end up leaning in. (which is why I drive them and once braced they don't move). I like the H brace design and I use ht wire and a ratchet strainer as my brace wire instead of #9 wire and twisting it so if I have to tension it later on I can easily do that.

 

[two_bit_score]

This job is a learning experiment. Keep an open mind and don’t get too hung up on how much to charge. You will adjust your price as you get more work. For awhile you might need to be higher on labor but as your experience and speed increase you might be able to lower the labor rate and increase markup.

Jobs you don’t want - Mark them up high. Easy jobs that will go quickly can be less.

A satisfied customer is the BEST advertising!

 

[two_bit_score]

This company is the best I’ve found all around.

Stay-Tuff | Superior Fence Products

Stay-Tuff is a leading manufacturer of agricultural fences. We make some of the most durable and impact resistant fences in the market, plus a full line of fencing tools and accessories.

www.staytuff.com

are you going to do barb wire or net fence With two barb strands on top?

 

[Needville]

I had one built 2 years ago (pre Covid). How they bid it was $4.00 a foot, plus $400 for each corner and $1000 per gate (they supplied the gate and all materials). Wooden posts set 12 foot apart.

As with most jobs the prep work is the hard part. I had already cleared the entire fence line and all they had to do was come in and put in the fence. If you have to tear out the old fence and clear the fence line that could easily be twice as difficult as building the actual fence.

 

[two_bit_score]

If you are using net high tensile wire I think you can go 20’ between T-Posts.

 

[mwemaxxowner]

I don't want to get too hung up on pricing, but at the same time, I want to be fair to both of us. I don't want to price it so cheap I'm almost donating my labor, and not even know it, and at the same time I don't want to throw out a ridiculously high number and not know it. I'm seeing anywhere from $3-$8/ foot when I Google it.

I don't know what they are fencing in or out yet. I'm doing this for a daughter and her husband of a family that lives a few miles from where I grew up. The daughter and husband are close to breaking ground on a new house, and want this done around their property before building begins. The parents have a lot of land around with various different livestock.

I'm trying to work up a list of questions I think I need to ask/things I think I need to know before I leave after meeting with them.

So far I have

How many wires, and what spacing?

Electric?

All wooden posts, metal t posts as line posts, or fiberglass posts?

What post spacing does he like to use?

How does he want his corners constructed and braced for direction changes?

Can I just use a strainer and spring tensioner for joining, or should I crimp, tie, etc (does it matter to them?)



Some things I've gathered I'll need:

Appropriate wire cutters (I already have a healthy pair of bolt cutters and grinders?)

Joint clamps

Strainers

Gripples

Tensioner springs

Staples

Insulator tubes

Unwinder if I don't like what my partner already has

Crimping tool

Possibly a brace and anchor kit?

Obviously when we go over it I will see the state of the land where the fence goes, and whether or not it will require work to be ready to install. I'll see how long the fence is. I will ask for him to let me see some of his existing fence, and I hope he won't mind if I use that as a guide to look at here and there. The new home will be close to the family land with livestock already there.


Edit: Small update. It's sectioning off part of the parents' pasture (cows) to create a section the daughter will have as her own. So not a huge run I bet. Probably the perfect job to bite off as my first.

 

[ponytug]

Sounds promising as a first project!

All the best, Peter

 

[Birdhunter1]

If it were me I would run 5 strands of high tensile to keep the cows out of the yard, space them 9" apart (with the first wire being at 12" up), make them all hot except the top one, and put your wire on the cattle side of the fence. Since this is going around a new house I would recommend a 6" post every 30-40' depending on terrain, full H braces at each corner, end and any other directional changes.
DARE fencing products makes a nice little guide and part catalog for all of their high tensile fence material and they show how to building corners, ends and direction changes as well as they have a guide for how many strands per animal and what kind of wire spacing. The spacing I recommended is what I woudl like to see but I will say the guide is not wrong.

 

[EddieWalker]

I've never done high tensile, but plan on surrounding my place with an 8 foot tall deer fence, which will be high tensile. I've spoken to a few installers, and also owners who have had it done and hope that I have a clue on how to start. Most of them like metal pipe for their corners, and pounding it in is more popular then drilling and setting concrete. I like wood, so my plan is to drill holes, set wooden posts and fill with concrete. I'm told that you have to set your corners, then pull a wire between them and get it super tight before setting your t posts and line posts. I'll use barb wire for this. I've done 4foot 2x4horse fence and found that I really need a good way to carry the fence around, and unwind it. I'm going to make something that I can attach to the front of my loader to do this. I tried hay forks and they really didn't work very well. You also need a way to hold onto the fence so you can pull it tight. High tensile really needs to be pulled tight, but not too tight. www.kencove.com has some nice tools for this that I'm going to spend the money on. I tired using 2x4's with bolts, but it's a pain and not what I want to use for a bigger job.

What to charge is tricky. As a contractor, I already know how long it will take me to do most jobs, so I can give my clients a solid number before I start. When I get into a mess of a job, I tell them that I will only do it on a hourly basis. It's a take it or leave it type of thing. Most will agree because they understand that there are too many unknowns to what I will find. In your case, with so little experience in doing this, I would figure out what you need to make per hour, and offer to do the job that way, or not at all. If you bid it low, and you probably will because you will be learning as you go, you will lose your lunch on it.

 

[TheMan419]

I've never done high tensile, but plan on surrounding my place with an 8 foot tall deer fence, which will be high tensile. I've spoken to a few installers, and also owners who have had it done and hope that I have a clue on how to start. Most of them like metal pipe for their corners, and pounding it in is more popular then drilling and setting concrete. I like wood, so my plan is to drill holes, set wooden posts and fill with concrete. I'm told that you have to set your corners, then pull a wire between them and get it super tight before setting your t posts and line posts. I'll use barb wire for this. I've done 4foot 2x4horse fence and found that I really need a good way to carry the fence around, and unwind it. I'm going to make something that I can attach to the front of my loader to do this. I tried hay forks and they really didn't work very well. You also need a way to hold onto the fence so you can pull it tight. High tensile really needs to be pulled tight, but not too tight. www.kencove.com has some nice tools for this that I'm going to spend the money on. I tired using 2x4's with bolts, but it's a pain and not what I want to use for a bigger job.

What to charge is tricky. As a contractor, I already know how long it will take me to do most jobs, so I can give my clients a solid number before I start. When I get into a mess of a job, I tell them that I will only do it on a hourly basis. It's a take it or leave it type of thing. Most will agree because they understand that there are too many unknowns to what I will find. In your case, with so little experience in doing this, I would figure out what you need to make per hour, and offer to do the job that way, or not at all. If you bid it low, and you probably will because you will be learning as you go, you will lose your lunch on it.

But why should the landowner be paying for his education? Lets say an experienced installer would take 10 hours to do the job but OP will take 20 hrs because of his lack of experience. Why should I as the landowner pay for 20 hrs of labor? Does not seem right.

 

[mwemaxxowner]

I don't plan to do any charging by the hour. I think that's the wrong direction to look entirely.

As a customer I don't like to pay for a job by the hour. It's too easy for someone to take the customer for a ride, and there's no incentive for them to hurry.

I'm not so concerned with what it's worth to me, I've just being searching to figure out what the job should be worth. As in what an experienced and fair contractor who has already been doing it would charge for it. Just so I can get an idea, and y'all have helped me with that. I was guessing more calculate what it would typically cost, and then knock some off of that to account for it inevitably taking me too long and for me asking questions.

I don't expect anyone to pay for my experience. I'm grateful for the opportunity to learn, and for their willingness to be patient with me and help me. Sounds like it'll be a small run, so I don't need to worry too much about "losing my lunch". Even if it takes me twice as long as it should, I shouldn't have THAT much time invested in it.

 

[Jstpssng]

It sounds like he knows what you are doing and has a good idea what it entails and how long that it should take. He also has known you all of your life so hopefully won't try to take advantage of you. By telling him just as stated in your original post you should be able to come up with a price which is fair to both of you, and also gain some experience toward next time.