Real snow tires versus all-season

   / Real snow tires versus all-season
  • Thread Starter
#61  
Thanks for checking that, Gerard.. I've always been interested in what the Police cars run. I notice you guys favor rear wheel drive vehicles almost exclusively. Is that because of handling, or because it's hard to find anything else with a V8 these days?

Thanks again,
Bob
 
   / Real snow tires versus all-season #62  
Mainly a size issue. No one makes a full size body with front wheel drive + crossing medians is a little rough on front wheel drives. Ever since Chevy stopped making the Caprice we're kind of stuck with the Crown Vics.
 
   / Real snow tires versus all-season #63  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( you guys favor rear wheel drive vehicles almost exclusively - because of handling, or because it's hard to find anything else with a V8 these days? )</font>

Bob, I can't speak for Gerard's, or anyone else's agency, but I can tell you that there are still a lot of people who do not (or think they do not) like front wheel drive vehicles. Difference in handling? Yes, in some people's minds. I don't think I want to get into a big debate over the differences, but yes, I understand there are some differences; however, you still drive them both basically the same and for a decent driver, the differences are just not really important. When I was involved with the police fleet, I did have a supervisor who was adamantly opposed to "foreign" vehicles, front wheel drive vehicles, and anything smaller than a Cadillac /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif. In fact, he bought a new Cadillac (I believe in 1981) because he was afraid rear wheel drive cars might not be available later.

However, in my area at least, the important factor was interior space. When we started putting mobile telephones, mobile digital terminals, tracking equipment, etc. in the cars, the only ones big enough to do that, and still have two officers in the front seat, were the Ford Crown Vic and the Chevrolet Caprice (Chrysler threatened to sue me when I spec'd them out because they were too small). So Chrysler got out of the police car business, then Chevrolet, so there aren't a lot of choices anymore. Another factor is the fact that, in the overall scheme of things, police vehicles are a tiny fraction of a manufacturer's business, but a real headache for the manufacturer. You or I may own a car that'll run 130 MPH, but if you wreck it at 90 MPH, the manufacturer's owners manual probably tells you to drive legally, so they aren't facing too big a liability risk. However, if they sell you a police pursuit vehicle and something goes wrong at 90 MPH, it's a different story. And when they sell to a governmental agency, they have to meet the specs, submit bids, lots of paperwork, provide warranty (and in bigger agencies like mine agree to allow the city to do the warranty work themselves), etc. You've undoubtedly seen in the news lately that a number of agencies, including Dallas, are suing Ford because of fires from rear end collisions (and the police frequently are parked where rear end collisions are going to happen).

A number of years ago, Honda made what was the best motorcycle for police work, but they had sense enough to just refuse to even try to get police business. The Gold Wing would run over 125 MPH, but the manuals said to drive legally, and in no case over 85 MPH. They were well aware of the lawsuits over the Kawasaki police bike crashes at high speeds, and in my personal opinion, as well as some more expert than I, those crashes were the result of improper tire pressure, improperly adjusted front fork pressure, improper weight distribution, and/or rider error, but Kawasaki paid out a lot of money.

Oops, let me off this soapbox. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I guess bottom line is that the Ford Crown Vic is the last "police" sedan made, and I wonder why they still do it (are you old enough to remember when Ford, Mercury, Chevrolet, Dodge, Plymouth, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Volvo, and many others marketed "police interceptor" cars?
 
   / Real snow tires versus all-season
  • Thread Starter
#64  
Hi Bird,

Thanks for summing that up.. that was great! Most of those issues had never crossed my mind.

I don't remember seeing the other types of police cruisers like Volvo, but then maybe I just wasn't paying attention. I do see the occassional Camaro on the NYS Thruway, though.

I think you make a good point (well, *many* good points /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif) but one that struck me was that "for a decent driver" the differences in vehicles are not very significant. I suspect that most people believe they are decent drivers, and that most of us are probably wrong. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif But you guys who do it professionally, day in and day out, you've got to really know what you're doing behind a wheel. Is it possible for people who aren't in law enforcement to get any of the training that you guys get? I've taken all the driver safety courses I can find, except the ones I can't afford like Bob Bondurant's high performance driving school. But I know there must be lots of things I don't know.. things that might save my butt in an emergency. They tell stories about Bondurant's school.. they say the first day he will load the students into an old van and take them around the race track, and the students are all convinced they are about to die until they see what a real pro can do even in a vehicle like this. Then the training begins. I'd love to experience that.. but it's thousands of dollars for just a couple days. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Any suggestions for people who want to learn how to handle a car correctly at the very limits? Again, I'm not talking street racing.. I'm talking emergency staying-alive types of skills.

Maybe, to put it another way, what would law enforcement people most like to see the average driver learn?

Thanks,
Bob
 
   / Real snow tires versus all-season #65  
The Crown Vics and Mercury Grand Marquis/Lincoln Towncars are a real value when you buy them used(my opinion)...you can by them cheap and they have lots of room in them and last a long time if properly maintained,not to mention being very comfortable.
 
   / Real snow tires versus all-season #66  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Any suggestions for people who want to learn how to handle a car correctly at the very limits?)</font>

Nope, I wouldn't know where to start without knowing current skill levels and probably couldn't tell you anything you don't already know or have heard. Some of those schools can be expensive, but I don't think I have the skill to teach anyone except hands on practice and experience; i.e., you have to get behind the wheel and do it to learn it.

I'm not proud of it, but I was something of a hotrodder in my younger days; a little street racing, a little stunt driving, a little track racing, etc. which got me questioned pretty hard when I first applied to the police department, but also may have helped me with the kind of driving I had to do after I became an officer. And I can tell you that most (surely not all) young officers look forward to driving that first high speed pursuit. But after you've done it a time or two, you dread the next one. Racing on a race track is quite a thrill for most drivers (or they wouldn't be doing it), but it's nothing compared to high speed pursuits on the street. I did my share of them and glad I don't have to do that anymore.
 
   / Real snow tires versus all-season #67  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( my opinion)</font>

My opinion, too. Just not too many good ones available, at least in our area.
 
   / Real snow tires versus all-season #68  
In a prior job I had a chance to work with the Michigan State Police during their "Police Vehicle Testing" at the Chrysler Proving ground. You are right about "space" being one of the key factors for the popularity of the big RWD cars like the Crown Vic. That vehicle is the officers "office" - and some of the boys aren't "petite". Room for equipment in the trunk is also important. Another factor is that they are the last of the "body on frame" vehicles. The CV is (and the Caprice was....) a "truck" - at least in terms of how it is constructed. By being body on frame - they can beef up the frame for the Police units (and limo units etc.) without having a unique "body" (which is where the expensive tooling usually is). Body on Frame isn't the "stiffest" way to build a car - or the lightest - but it is sturdy and tough. RWD cars are more stable in dynamic "max-handling" events - but I'm not sure that's why the Police etc. want them.

BTW - in an earlier note above I said that the Police Tires aren't unique. The tires that come "from the factory" are "tuned" differently (mainly for ride and steering) - but there is no "secret" technology etc. The replacement tires are "off the rack" (in fact - I'm pretty certain the Eagle 225/60VR16 RSA's you can buy from "The Tire Rack" and other companies are the same ones the Police Dept's get as replacement tires. A good friend works for Goodyear in the Perf. Tires sales group...)

Bill
 
   / Real snow tires versus all-season #69  
Bird:

I see quite a few law enforcement agencies driving the dreaded SUV or pickup truck. All with four wheel drive.

Yes I can remember the pursuit vehicle with the big V8 or Hemi. They never bothered me as The last speeding ticket I received was well over 20 years ago for exceeding the limit by 12 MPH.

Egon
 
   / Real snow tires versus all-season #70  
I believe that the GM "pursuit" SUV (Tahoe?) is sold as RWD for Police applications?

Bill
 

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