Remote Lighting

JohnG · Apr 26, 2003

I need to install lighting in a garage approx. 200ft from my house. For several reasons, I don't believe it's practical to run electric service from the house the garage. I have a generator to power tools but it hardly seems practical to run it all the time for lighting. I would like to setup 4 overhead flourescent fixtures with 2 40watt bulbs each. Does anyone have suggestions or experiance with battery lighting for example, with solar charges. I have several 12 volt trolling motor batteries. Any info would be appreciated!
John

shado · Apr 26, 2003

Your'e in need of an UPS (Uninterupptable Power Source) system. Solar charging probably won't cut it unless you want to buy some really expensive panels. And since you already have a generator, you can recharge the batteries as needed. The UPS will provide the AC for the lights, all those batteries will let you run for an extended period, you'll just have to get an UPS unit that will put out enough wattage for the fixtures that you'll be using.
J.W.

Anonymous Poster · Apr 26, 2003

Your lighting requirements call for a combined consumption of 320 watts. At 12 volts, that's a current draw of around 25 amps--not counting inverter (UPS) and battery efficiency issues. Round up to 30 amps to cover these items.

Assuming that you are going to need to use these lights on something like a daily basis, for more than a few minutes at a time, the 30 amp current requirement completely eliminates solar power as a reasonable source of energy.

You would need a huge solar array--not to mention an equally large battery bank with sophisticated regulation.

Think in the area of several $1,000s to buy and install the equipment.

Are your sure you can't run AC power 200 feet?

SnowRidge

JohnG · Apr 27, 2003

Thanks for the feed back. Let me provide a few more details. Usage on the lights will be approx. 16-20 hours per week if possible, 8 during the week and 8-12 on weekends. I may only need two 80 watt fixtures on at any one time. The only option for running power from the house seems to be extention cords. The only chart I could find indicated about 8 amps is the max on 10 gauge cord at 200ft. Is that correct? The chart didn't explain how it arrived at that number /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif. I also haven't been able to find any cords longer than 100ft. I've considered mounting a hand crank hose reel with the cord mounted on it for storage.
Back to the batteries; I have 4 deep cycle battries I can use to provide power. I haven't seen a UPS that connects to deep cycles,any suggestion on who sells them? Secondly, would I be better of hooking them up parallel or in series? Some of this is obviously going to be trial and Error /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
John

prosperity · Apr 27, 2003

I lived without electricity for 8 years.
We used high efficiency fluorescent lighting running off large 12v batteries. I also ran a TV and dish receiver.

If you try to keep your lighting wattage to a minimum, and have ample storage batteries, you can feasibly run what you've stated. You will need an inverter to invert the power from 12vdc to 120vac. You might have to charge your batteries (with generator) once or twice a week depending on usage.
I used 12v fluorescent lights running directly off the batteries (fused of course) and used the inverter only for TV.

For 12v lights go here

If you want to go the 120v route, look here

Another option would be to make a run of 12/2 cable. My barn is about 200' away from my house and has a single 12/2 run buried to the barn. I have 12 4' double flourescent fixtures on at once and still run other shop equipment without problem. I put a small breaker box at the entrance to the barn.

Being that I've been there - done that, I would recommend to run the electric to the barn. Actually the cost isn't that bad. Dealing with batteries & generators can get to be a pain.

Anonymous Poster · Apr 27, 2003

Echoing Prosperity somewhat, I lived on 12 volts for 11 years aboard a sailboat. You learn to compromise--or do without.

The typical 12 volt florescent is rated at eight (8) watts. They are as dim as you might imagine. While higher wattage 12 volt fixtures are available, this should give you some idea of how little power is considered "normal" in the business of living on 12 volts.

Even if your power requirement has halved to 160 watts, and you will use them for up to 12 hours per weekend, you still will need a good sized battery bank and solar array, and you will still need a regulator. The good news is that your array and battery bank will now cost about half as many thousands as before. The inverter will be a little less, while the regulator will probably be about the same.

Of course, if you still intend to run all the lights at some times, then you will still need the larger inverter.

I didn't mention it last time, but most inverters don't put out true AC. They put out a stepped waveform (modified sine wave) that approximates a true sine wave (like the power company). A lot of things run fine on modified sine wave power. Some things don't. I blew up a computer that didn't like it.

See http://www.xantrex.com/support/docserve.asp?id=336

I don't know what AC florescents will do on a modified sinewave. They may work fine, or they may hum a little or a lot, or be less efficient. It is something you would have to determine before you proceeded. Hopefully, you wouldn't need to go to a true sinewave inverter, as they are much more expensive.

Regarding your existing deep cycle batteries. Assuming they are all 12 volt units, and you are installing a 12 volt solar array and a 12 volt to 120 volt inverter, then you would hook them in parallel. If you hooked them in series, you would need the rest of the equipment to work with 48 volts. It's available, but tends to be quite a bit higher priced. The solar panels themselves would not change, just how they were wired.

By the way, when paralleling batteries, they are supposed to be all the same size (capacity), age, and condition.

( I haven't seen a UPS that connects to deep cycles,any suggestion on who sells them? )

An UPS is an inverter, charger, and battery combination designed to provide temporary AC power for a short period. For what you want to do, you need an inverter designed to provide power indefinately. Here's one that should work:

http://www.realgoods.com/renew/shop/product.cfm?dp=1702&ts=3027879&kw=inverter

But I still don't understand why you can't run AC to the garage. Normally you would go underground in conduit from your main house panel to a sub-panel in the garage. You would need to install the proper size double pole breaker in your house panel, run the correct wire in the conduit, and install an adequate sub-panel in the garage.

The sizing of all this would depend on exactly what you planned to do with the AC out there, beside powering 320 watts of light. But no matter what, I'm sure it would cost less than going the solar route, and there is a lot of expertise here on TBN available to help you with any AC power work you plan to do.

SnowRidge

JohnG · Apr 28, 2003

SnowRidge, that was pretty intense. Thanks for the explanation. I think the battery idea died somewhere mid reply. I'll have to run it from the house. The building idea began with no plan for power other than occasional generator use, and now, oh well, you know how these things grow. Thanks again for the info.

Anonymous Poster · Apr 28, 2003

You are welcome. I hope I didn't get too intense, that wasn't what I intended. Sometimes it's difficult to know just how much detail to put in a post.

BTW, I know your frustration at getting power to that garage. The place we bought in Tennessee has a 1200 sq ft workshop with no water, and no septic connection. The well isn't too far away, but the house is between the shop and the septic. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't wonder what the h*ll the original owner was thinking when he sited these buildings.

SnowRidge

19th_VA · Apr 29, 2003

Speaking for myself, I loved the intensity, and the detail, especially because you left out the "judgement" from you tone. Nothing like a great, old fashioned education. I know plenty about AC, but not about the minutia--just about wiring. Thanks from a neutral observer! Must be something about those Branson owners!

uhmgawa · May 29, 2003

( The only option for running power from the house seems to be extention cords. The only chart I could find indicated about 8 amps is the max on 10 gauge cord at 200ft. Is that correct? The chart didn't explain how it arrived at that number /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif. I also haven't been able to find any cords longer than 100ft. I've considered mounting a hand crank hose reel with the cord mounted on it for storage.
Back to the batteries; I have 4 deep cycle battries I can use to provide power. I haven't seen a UPS that connects to deep cycles,any suggestion on who sells them? Secondly, would I be better of hooking them up parallel or in series? Some of this is obviously going to be trial and Error /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
John )

The limitation on the run of the extension cord is
a function of allowable voltage drop. To minimize
voltage drop you can either shorten the run, reduce
load current, or increase conductor size.

Another approach you could try if none of the above
would be workable is to run a 240/120V (two pole)
line to the building and balance your loads between
both poles. This will half the voltage drop compared
to a 120V only line. This assumes you can strike a
fair balance between branches which would be quite
easy for an even number of similar lighting loads.
In this case you will need a 4-wire extension cord
(conventional grounded extension cords are 3-wire).

On a practical note, unless you are ok with the
prospect of (un)reeling extension cords in whatever
weather/lighting comes your way, I would think about
permanently wiring the feed. Underground conduit
is by far my first choice. Underground direct burial
is also possible, but if I'm going to dig a trench
once I'd also hope it was the last time as well.

I've never personally hung any overhead feeds but it
may also be possible (though my recollection of the NEC
here is foggy).