Removing Ethanol from Gasoline

[dave1949]

Ran across this magazine article in Northern Woodlands. Sorry it's not online yet. Maybe it's old news, but it was new to me.

A small engine repair mechanic, Dwight Broome in Concord, VT cut the bottom off a propane tank (large enough to hold 5+ gal) and unscrews the valve fitting replacing that with a pipe that will be a drain. Then he turns it upside down so the drain pipe is at the bottom. He built a stand to hold it upright.

He pours 5 gallons of E10 gas in, then two quarts of water. The water combines with the ethanol and turns milky white. The water+ethanol sinks to the bottom where he drains it from the tank using the pipe. What's left in the tank is ethanol free gas which he drains back into his 5 gal. jug.

He uses the water+ethanol as windshield washer fluid (good down to -40F he says, although I doubt it's been -40F in Concord, VT ?), or to fill small lawn/garden tractor tires.

So, if you can't find ethanol-free gas, you can separate it. Dwight says he got tired of repairing the stuff ethanol eats in chainsaw and other small engine carbs, especially older equipment not made to withstand the corrosive ethanol.

He uses an ethanol content tester like this one:
Tiny Tester - Alcohol/Ethanol Content Tester | Accessories | Fuel, Lubricants & Mixes | www.baileysonline.com

and says it's not uncommon to find E10 with more than 10% ethanol--which would exceed some small engine specs. We've had a lot differences noted from posters who have or have not had ethanol problems, maybe the variation in supplier's batches accounts for some of that.

As usual he recommends draining the fuel tank and running the carb dry when not using small engines.

 

[like2wheel]

Problem is you end up with a pretty low octane gasoline because the refiners take advantage of the high octane of the ethanol when blending the e10.

Maybe with ultra premium there'd be an acceptable amount of octane left

 

[ruffdog]

That is why ethanol should not be used when mixing a premix 2 cycle fuel. As the fuel sits, it may collect moisture which will be absorbed by the ethanol. The oil will then be separated into the pure gas as oil and water don't mix. Now your fuel will be separated into 2 parts: pure fuel with a heavy mix of oil and the ethanol water mix. Yes, it takes a bunch of water to do this but my neighbor can do it!

I have been using a ethanol tester like that since the early 80's.

 

[buickanddeere]

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

 

[dave1949]

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

The listings in Maine are all marinas and small general aviation airports. The marinas may be closed all winter.

This stuff at $7.88/qt (95 octane, pre-mixed 50:1, ethanol free) might be worth it for people who don't use a lot of 2-cycle mix. If you dodge one expensive repair or replacement due to using it, it may even out.
Shop Husqvarna Quart 50:1 (2-Stroke) Pre-Mix Fuel at Lowes.com

 

[dave1949]

That is why ethanol should not be used when mixing a premix 2 cycle fuel. As the fuel sits, it may collect moisture which will be absorbed by the ethanol. The oil will then be separated into the pure gas as oil and water don't mix. Now your fuel will be separated into 2 parts: pure fuel with a heavy mix of oil and the ethanol water mix. Yes, it takes a bunch of water to do this but my neighbor can do it!

I have been using a ethanol tester like that since the early 80's.

Do you see much variation in the ethanol percentage when you check it?

I've never had much reason to work around ethanol issues but I know people do. I treat premium gas with Sta-Bil and run 2 and 4 cycle engines dry if I'm not using them and have been lucky so far.

I don't have older, pre-ethanol equipment so I'm sure that makes a difference too. My last two chainsaw failures were death by operator error and a bad bar oil pump.

 

[ray66v]

This year, I bought 5 gallons of "boat gas", which is ethanol free, to run everything but my mower on.

It lasted me all season.

The Boat gas is too far away, to be convenient for me to use it in the mower. And, the E10 seems to be working fine in there.

In the meantime, if everyone keeps asking for boat gas, at their local stations, more may start selling it.

I have stations 2 now, But, both are 40 minutes away.

 

[ruffdog]

Do you see much variation in the ethanol percentage when you check it?

I've never had much reason to work around ethanol issues but I know people do. I treat premium gas with Sta-Bil and run 2 and 4 cycle engines dry if I'm not using them and have been lucky so far.

I don't have older, pre-ethanol equipment so I'm sure that makes a difference too. My last two chainsaw failures were death by operator error and a bad bar oil pump.

I don't check for ethanol much now as I don't work in a shop anymore. We have plenty of pure gas around here so I don't have any issues with my fuel.

 

[dfkrug]

Problem is you end up with a pretty low octane gasoline because the refiners take advantage
of the high octane of the ethanol when blending the e10.

Maybe with ultra premium there'd be an acceptable amount of octane left

I was concerned about that, too. So I converted one gallon of Premium. It was not hard to do, but I have
not done it again since I used up that one gallon of pre-mix. I do not know how much the octane
number of the low-ethanol gas went down.

I recommend to all the infrequent 2-stroke users I know: buy the $8 quarts that DAVE1949 refers to.

 

[ruffdog]

Adding oil to gasoline (premix) also lowers octane. That is why they say to start with premium.

 

[2458n]

At 32 dollars a gallon I can buy a new carb and fuel line kit every year.

 

[RandyT]

I was concerned about that, too. So I converted one gallon of Premium. It was not hard to do, but I have
not done it again since I used up that one gallon of pre-mix. I do not know how much the octane
number of the low-ethanol gas went down.

I recommend to all the infrequent 2-stroke users I know: buy the $8 quarts that DAVE1949 refers to.

Removing the ethanol drops the octane about 2-3 points. Ethanol can absorb about .5 percent water before it separates out of the fuel. Some of the better ethanol treatments can raise that percentage to about 3 percent before separation.

 

[dave1949]

At 32 dollars a gallon I can buy a new carb and fuel line kit every year.

Can you do that if you are burning two gallons of mix ($64) a year? You need to deduct two gallons of premium at the pump and two small bottles of 2-cycle oil from that $64 also.

I mix my own, but I would say I'm at a marginal point since I usually use only 2-3 gallons in a summer. Plus I suck at dealing with the teeny tiny carb parts in the kits. :laughing:

 

[newbury]

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

Nice list but doesn't list where I've been buying ETOH free for years.

 

[kenmac]

Just bought some pure gasoline... 3.75 per gal..don't know why it's much higher than gas with ethonal

 

[dave1949]

Just bought some pure gasoline... 3.75 per gal..don't know why it's much higher than gas with ethonal

You either subsidize the corn at the IRS, or pay the price at the pump. ??? :laughing:

The ethanol policies and how they relate to corn are out of control IMO.

 

[murphy1244]

Nice list but doesn't list where I've been buying ETOH free for years.

Then add it to the list for others to see.

 

[cowpie1]

It always amazes me how the ethanol subject can cause so many people, so much grief. In my neck of the woods, we have had, and used, E10 since the late 70's / early 80's. I have never run across anyone who had any issues. Sure, the older stuff, once E10 showed up, had to have some filter changes as the ethanol cleaned the gum and varnish from the fuel systems, and even had some carbs and early throttle body injection nozzles take a dump because of the cleaning out effect of ethanol. I have run lawn mowers on E10 for over 3 decades, every gasoline powered vehicle I have owned since the stuff became available, I have never had a fuel related problem, nor have any of friends and neighbors complained about it.

And no one is subsidizing the corn. Anyone around farming knows that corn price subsidies haven't been paid in years. It is based on a basement price for corn, and we haven't been that low since Clinton administration. Darn close, like this year, because we had a serious record corn crop in the U.S. so prices per bushel have tanked.

Ethanol is traded on the commodity exchanges just like oil and gas. It is not subsidized. Some ethanol producers and blenders got some subsidies in the past, but those days are long gone.

I have no problem with folks wanting and using ethanol free gas. I have no dog in that hunt. I just am amazed at after several decades of most of the country using ethanol laced gasoline, to hear the folks who ar opposed, we should be finding stacks of equipment that doesn't run, vehicles by the thousands sitting along the road, etc. Paranoia can be a terrible thing.

 

[mikehaugen]

One thing I don't understand about the pricing is how going from e0 to e10 makes about a dollar difference, but going from e10 to e85 only makes about a 40-60 cent difference... or at least last time I checked.

 

[dave1949]

It always amazes me how the ethanol subject can cause so many people, so much grief. In my neck of the woods, we have had, and used, E10 since the late 70's / early 80's. I have never run across anyone who had any issues. Sure, the older stuff, once E10 showed up, had to have some filter changes as the ethanol cleaned the gum and varnish from the fuel systems, and even had some carbs and early throttle body injection nozzles take a dump because of the cleaning out effect of ethanol. I have run lawn mowers on E10 for over 3 decades, every gasoline powered vehicle I have owned since the stuff became available, I have never had a fuel related problem, nor have any of friends and neighbors complained about it.

And no one is subsidizing the corn. Anyone around farming knows that corn price subsidies haven't been paid in years. It is based on a basement price for corn, and we haven't been that low since Clinton administration. Darn close, like this year, because we had a serious record corn crop in the U.S. so prices per bushel have tanked.

Ethanol is traded on the commodity exchanges just like oil and gas. It is not subsidized. Some ethanol producers and blenders got some subsidies in the past, but those days are long gone.

I have no problem with folks wanting and using ethanol free gas. I have no dog in that hunt. I just am amazed at after several decades of most of the country using ethanol laced gasoline, to hear the folks who ar opposed, we should be finding stacks of equipment that doesn't run, vehicles by the thousands sitting along the road, etc. Paranoia can be a terrible thing.

Corn ethanol policies are complex and vary from one Farm Bill to the next. Just from looking at the first story link I think it would take me several days of digging to begin to understand what really happens. At the very least a guaranteed market has been created and a mandate continues for ethanol--which is supplied mainly from corn. Subsidy or something else, but the costs of that end up somewhere, such as the price of food and environmental impact issues. 40% of the US corn crop went to ethanol production in 2013?

Corn Ethanol Subsidies Are Alive and Well | Taxpayers for Common Sense
Obama's 2015 Budget Backs Costly Corn Ethanol Subsidies - US News