Removing Ethanol from Gasoline

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I have no problem with folks wanting and using ethanol free gas. I have no dog in that hunt. I just am amazed at after several decades of most of the country using ethanol laced gasoline, to hear the folks who ar opposed, we should be finding stacks of equipment that doesn't run, vehicles by the thousands sitting along the road, etc. Paranoia can be a terrible thing.

No you shouldn't be finding "stacks of equipment" nor is it paranoia. It's lousy stuff that inhibits gas mileage as much as 2-4 mpgs in my vehicles and has trashed a multitude of carburetors by leaving a residue I can best describe as "cellulose" that gunks up fuel passages. It is a pain to have to keep taking these apart after the not so comfortable extraction from say a motorcycle, and clean this crap out. It is questionable as to its effects since cars have had cleaner emissions all by themselves even in the last 10 years. Compared to what we burn as a nation, it's production is a drop in the bucket if the argument is it creates "less dependency". To me, there are other reasons why it is in our fuel that have little to do with what it's purported benefits are.

 

[newbury]

Corn ethanol policies are complex and vary from one Farm Bill to the next. Just from looking at the first story link I think it would take me several days of digging to begin to understand what really happens. At the very least a guaranteed market has been created and a mandate continues for ethanol--which is supplied mainly from corn. Subsidy or something else, but the costs of that end up somewhere, such as the price of food and environmental impact issues. 40% of the US corn crop went to ethanol production in 2013?

Corn Ethanol Subsidies Are Alive and Well | Taxpayers for Common Sense
Obama's 2015 Budget Backs Costly Corn Ethanol Subsidies - US News

But those are not Subsidies, they are tax credits and mandated usage! That's like calling a shovel a spade. Sure the industry still gets to suckle at the teat of the taxpayer, but it's not a Subsidy.

 

[dave1949]

But those are not Subsidies, they are tax credits and mandated usage! That's like calling a shovel a spade. Sure the industry still gets to suckle at the teat of the taxpayer, but it's not a Subsidy.

It sure quacks like a duck.

It sounds like everyone gets something--except the guy who grew the corn maybe. Growing corn must be its own reward.

I'm not picking on you cowpie1. I should have suspected, but didn't realize how hard Congress has worked to justify their existence on this. Since the first Pres. caucus is in Iowa, you're bound to do better about every four years.

 

[Sodo]

I have no problem with folks wanting and using ethanol free gas. I have no dog in that hunt. I just am amazed at after several decades of most of the country using ethanol laced gasoline, to hear the folks who ar opposed, we should be finding stacks of equipment that doesn't run, vehicles by the thousands sitting along the road, etc. Paranoia can be a terrible thing.

Yup you can get more power, better performance with ethanol free gas because pure gas has more energy.

But I'm in agreement with cowpie on the rest of this. Ethanol is nothing new, but the legend of it is getting stronger and stronger. Craigslist would be full of "come take it away, free chainsaw, riding lawnmower, tractor" on and on and on, if this was for real. It's not. Carbs have always gotten gummed up due to inattention, nothing new here folks. I don't know about fuel stabilizer, don't know if I want to breathe yet another chemical. Drain your carbs is the best bet. When I do that, engines start on the first pull.

The ethanol problem seems to be a men's internet legend, a "husbands tale".

 

[Redneck in training]

It sure quacks like a duck.

It sounds like everyone gets something--except the guy who grew the corn maybe. Growing corn must be its own reward.

I'm not picking on you cowpie1. I should have suspected, but didn't realize how hard Congress has worked to justify their existence on this. Since the first Pres. caucus is in Iowa, you're bound to do better about every four years.

IA is the top producer of ethanol (3.7 billion gallons which is 27 percent of the nation's total) but as far as I can see every gasoline pump in the state sells both 100% and 90+10% gasoline.
I also suspect that the farmers lobby has something to do with Ethanol legislation.

 

[RandyT]

Ethanol by itself isn't the problem. the guys that run fuel through there equipment regularly don't see problems. The problem with ethanol is the water absorbing properties. That water combining with the ethanol, and other impurities forms an mild acid, which is corrosive to metal especially the aluminum is small engine carbs. then top that with the micro narrow passages in todays emissions carbs, and it is a problem waiting to happen.

the thing with fuel injection systems is it can handle a wider various in fuel quality, and most systems have a excess fuel return to tank system which tends to stir the fuel in the tank, so you have less separation problems.

 

[newbury]

Yup you can get more power, better performance with ethanol free gas because pure gas has more energy.

But I'm in agreement with cowpie on the rest of this. Ethanol is nothing new, but the legend of it is getting stronger and stronger. Craigslist would be full of "come take it away, free chainsaw, riding lawnmower, tractor" on and on and on, if this was for real. It's not. Carbs have always gotten gummed up due to inattention, nothing new here folks. I don't know about fuel stabilizer, don't know if I want to breathe yet another chemical. Drain your carbs is the best bet. When I do that, engines start on the first pull.

The ethanol problem seems to be a men's internet legend, a "husbands tale".

I've 6 chainsaws, 2 35cc, 1 62cc, 2 90cc, and 1 120cc, plus 3 Stihl weedwacker/brush cutters and a 350 blower. Due to changing circumstances not all get run regularly. I used to have them "gum up" and be hard starting when running ETOH gas/oil mix if left to sit for over a month. Note I've always use a good oil mix w/ built in stabilizer. About 3 years ago I made a serious effort to switch to ETOH free fuel. Since then I've found that I can let my engines set months without starting and they will start normally.

My 120cc saw has barely gotten used in the few years I've had it but starts fine like a Stihl.

Call it a "husbands tale" but works great for me. The only "problem" is filling up at the local Ms ETOH free station versus just any gas station. It's over 100 yards out of my way.

 

[ruffdog]

I've 6 chainsaws, 2 35cc, 1 62cc, 2 90cc, and 1 120cc, plus 3 Stihl weedwacker/brush cutters and a 350 blower. Due to changing circumstances not all get run regularly. I used to have them "gum up" and be hard starting when running ETOH gas/oil mix if left to sit for over a month. Note I've always use a good oil mix w/ built in stabilizer. About 3 years ago I made a serious effort to switch to ETOH free fuel. Since then I've found that I can let my engines set months without starting and they will start normally.

My 120cc saw has barely gotten used in the few years I've had it but starts fine like a Stihl.

Call it a "husbands tale" but works great for me. The only "problem" is filling up at the local Ms ETOH free station versus just any gas station. It's over 100 yards out of my way.

I agree and am in the same boat. I also find that equipment restarts when hot much better on pure gas. I have found that E10 seems to boil at a lower temp too.

 

[Sodo]

About 3 years ago I made a serious effort to switch to ETOH free fuel. Since then I've found that I can let my engines set months without starting and they will start normally.

I have 50 engines. Lots of them set for over a month, and months. The most significant thing I've discovered is to "stir up" ethanol fuel that's sat awhile, makes it easier to start after sitting. For example tip a lawnmower up and let it plop back down. I like the squeeze bulb type carb primers. Draining the carb is good too if you happen to know it will sit for a period. If not , well spend a little effort to shake it up before pulling on the rope. Which might be difficult with a riding mower or 200 lb generator for stuff like that I use a can of starting fluid.

But in any case with 50 engines under my watch I've been paying attention to this ethanol paranoia for the past 4 years and have found that the problem is a tiny fraction of the hype. Agreed it would be nice if the problem didn't exist. No pollution at all would be nice too but you cant have everything.

I do prefer the way my motorcycles run on pure gas. But another good way is to buy a motorcycle with so much power you don't notice the difference.

Interesting notion about separating & removing the ethanol. Seems like an awful lotta work for dubious benefits but now curious about the resultant octane after such a process.

 

[ruffdog]

It seems that alcohols are more common than ethers, like MTBE, to be used as oxygenators in fuel. Are there still areas using ethers? I thought most of those chemicals were made in other countries too. Alcohol may have some drawbacks but they are probably better for our health than MTBE's.

 

[ruffdog]

When working at the dealer, all products(sleds, atv's, bikes) that were going to the storage building were drained of fuel. Back then the 10% methanol was getting popular and would create problems if it sat in the product too long.

 

[arrow]

I have 50 engines. Lots of them set for over a month, and months. The most significant thing I've discovered is to "stir up" ethanol fuel that's sat awhile, makes it easier to start after sitting. For example tip a lawnmower up and let it plop back down. I like the squeeze bulb type carb primers. Draining the carb is good too if you happen to know it will sit for a period. If not , well spend a little effort to shake it up before pulling on the rope. Which might be difficult with a riding mower or 200 lb generator for stuff like that I use a can of starting fluid.

But in any case with 50 engines under my watch I've been paying attention to this ethanol paranoia for the past 4 years and have found that the problem is a tiny fraction of the hype. Agreed it would be nice if the problem didn't exist. No pollution at all would be nice too but you cant have everything.

I do prefer the way my motorcycles run on pure gas. But another good way is to buy a motorcycle with so much power you don't notice the difference.

Interesting notion about separating & removing the ethanol. Seems like an awful lotta work for dubious benefits but now curious about the resultant octane after such a process.

Your lack of trouble with the stuff may have something to do with climate, engine usage and time of shut down. A stationary engine here in the N.E. can sit doing nothing for 4-6 months. I am now uber careful to drain out every carburetor I have of the stuff.
For me, clean air and this stuff does not necessarily correlate. Better fuel burning with more efficient engines, reduction of average vehicle weight and increased aerodynamics certainly have afforded better fuel efficiencies. A product that reduces fuel use as opposed to what this stuff does increasing fuel use, seems to me a better substance to put in gasoline.

 

[Sodo]

Your lack of trouble with the stuff may have something to do with climate, engine usage and time of shut down

Certainly could be part of it. My engines are in the Cascade mountains and in Seattle. The more engines I get the more some of them sit. I drain them when I think it might sit, if I remember.

A product that reduces fuel use as opposed to what this stuff does increasing fuel use, seems to me a better substance to put in gasoline.

Yeah that's a consideration. With less power, you press the throttle farther down, and in the end is the pollution the same? However I'm not thrilled about MTBE in the groundwater. Neither am I thrilled about using our fertile topsoil to generate fuel while theres a lot of it underground. From one problem springs another, but it's irresponsible (of any government) to fail to act with regards to pollution. Removing MTBE from fuel was necessary.

 

[cowpie1]

A tax credit is a subsidy? Wow! What accounting course did you take? A tax credit is just a reduction in the amount of tax you have to pay. A subsidy is an actual payout to you. I get tax credits all the time, in both personal and business form. Home interest deduction, health insurance premium deduction, etc, etc. I get to take 80% of $58 a day as a deduction for expenses on the road as a commercial driver, even thought I never come anywhere near that amount out of pocket. Those are all tax credit and allowances. No money was paid to me for these things. I am for every one, and every business to get all the tax credits they can! The government spends and wastes too much as it is. It is time to put government on a diet. Now, I am definitely against direct payments, or subsidies, to any business at any time.

As for ethanol being inefficient as a fuel, true, in an engine that is designed primarily for gasoline. But take a look at what Cummins and Ricardo have come up with. Both are in final design phase of Extreme Boosted Direct Injection (EBDI) engines that primarily use E85. The result? Those engines are getting equal performance to diesel engines of larger displacement and as good of fuel efficiency as diesel. The Ricardo offering, a 3.2L EBDI V6 has the same performance and economy as a 6.6L Duramax Diesel. The Cummins offering, a 2.8L inline 4 has more power and better efficiency than a 5.7L V8 gasser.

I let my lawn equipment sit from mid November thru spring, tanks full, just stabilizer added, with E10 in them. Have for years. I have yet to have a fuel related problem. Maybe that they are John Deere products has something to do with it... oh wait.... Kawasaki engines.

 

[BarnieTrk]

I let my lawn equipment sit from mid November thru spring, tanks full, just stabilizer added, with E10 in them. Have for years. I have yet to have a fuel related problem. Maybe that they are John Deere products has something to do with it... oh wait.... Kawasaki engines.

Cowpie1,

What are you using for a 'fuel stabilizer'?

Is anyone else using any fuel additives with success?

BarnieTrk

 

[cowpie1]

I have used both Stabil and the Amsoil Gasoline Stabilizer product.

 

[dave1949]

I sure am glad to learn that the federal tax credit I claimed for my solar panels wasn't a subsidy for green energy. Whew! I feel so much more righteous now. :laughing:

Cowpie1, not all tax credits are created equal or serve the same purpose even though they share the name, and subsidy methods are not restricted to payments you receive directly.