Replace R-22 unit or upgrade?

[LD1]

This is at the 3-unit appts I own. One of the units has an issue with the HP. Prior to my ownership another company was out there about two years ago and replaced the compressor. I have had my guy out there and the new issue seems to be something not allowing refrigerant to get to the compressor. (This was about a month ago and was too cold to do much so I am going off memory).

He said something about one of the valves in the system being blocked or something. And for the time and labor to to try to find the issue, then fix, I would be money ahead to just drop a new outdoor unit in there. This is only a 1.5 Ton unit, and a new r22 dry outdoor unit set + labor would be in the $1000-$1200 range.

But he also put a bug in my ear about just upgrading to a 410a unit since they are phasing out the R22. This would require a new indoor unit as well since the coil sizing and pressures are different. He estimates this to be about double the cost. $2k-$2500.

So....what would you do. If this was my house, I would probably upgrade. But for the appts.....

I have also read about a refrigerant called dupont isceon. From my reading it is an R22 substitute that dont require a whole new system. Rather just a new filter/dryer, and new seals on the schrader valves. But wondering if this is a long-term solution.

With the phase out over the next 5 years, my HVAC guy is concerned that if I ever have any more issues, I will be forced to upgrade. And dont want me to spend a grand on a unit that will be obsolete and unable to service in 5 years. I know a lot can change in 5 years though. IS this Isceon a silver bullet?

 

[hosspuller]

The key for me is: If this was my house, I would probably upgrade. But for the appts.....

Unless you're going to sell the apts in the next 5 years.... You would be ahead to replace the unit instead of patching. Like the trucks with Cummins diesel engines... the engine is good but the rest of the truck is falling apart. The evap coils is old, the inside blower motor is old....
Regardless of the unit... new or old... you pay for repairs. Is the future repair worth the hassle?

 

[LD1]

If it was my house, I would also go for the highest efficiency unit I can. But it is not my electric bill so I see no need to do so. Especially since they are efficient appts anyway. Spending extra money on high efficiency doesnt gain me anything.

Sure, the indoor unit is older too. But the only thing with moving parts is the blower. Which are cheap and I can change myself without an expensive HVAC contractor.

The bulk of issues, and bulk of moving parts is in the outdoor unit. Which is gonna be all new regardless of R22 or R410a.

I just hate the thought of replacing all the indoor stuff that is still good. And spending twice as much money to change refrigerant, when alot can still happen in 5 years. Just dont want to be kicking myself if there is an alternative. Like an R22 replacement that dont require a total system change....like I think the Isceon is from what I have read.?????

Or worse, spend a ton of money converting all 3 units over the next few years to 410a, only to find out the Gov't decides its no good either and have to do it all over again:mur:

 

[dstig1]

IMO, central AC units don't require a lot of work and last a long time. Ours is 17+ yrs old and I replaced the compressor fan motor a few year back and that is all. Still running strong. A new R22 unit should last a very long time. True, any fixes will get increasingly harder, but that should be far enough out that if/when it happens, you go 410 then anyways. Stick with the cheaper option here and when the next unit craps out, decide then to go 410 or not based on the same logic. It may be many years and 22 won't be available. Or not. If I was installing new (like I just did last year in our new house), I would go 410 for sure.

 

[LD1]

So 1 vote for each right now.

I will probably go the cheaper route and hope for another 15 trouble free years. And If I do have issues, thats why I was asking about the ISCEON stuff. Anybody know anything about it other than what I have already read that can shed some light?

 

[mfreund]

It is a appt. Go the cheapest route, you never know what tomorrow brings and does no good to worry.

 

[techman]

The dry charge 22 units are at least 13 SEER

I will last 15+ years. Go for it

paul

 

[LD1]

So 3 to 1 now. Looks like I will go with what my gut was telling me....r-22.

The point about not knowing what tomorrow brings is just what I was thinking. I have no plans to sell anytime soon, or even in the next 30 years, but never know what can happen.

 

[murph1]

I bought 2 complete dry r-22 units to replace my 410a units.

 

[LD1]

I bought 2 complete dry r-22 units to replace my 410a units.

Why would you go backwards?

Assume you also had to change the furnace indoors? or at least the coil?

 

[kenmac]

Is he going to replace the current evap. coil with the new dry charged condensing unit ?.. If not. what are you going to do when the old evap. coil springs a leak ?

By the time you have to go back and replace the old leaking evap coil with a new coil and re charge. you will be ahead to install all new..

I have had customers take this gamble and loose after I had to return and install a new evap coil, pull another vacuum and refill with 22... R22 ain't cheap these days !

 

[murph1]

Why would you go backwards?

Assume you also had to change the furnace indoors? or at least the coil?

Why is that backwards? The units I bought have scroll compressors. I have 6 jugs of r-22.You should ask your Uncle what he would do.

 

[kenmac]

I had to re read your post.. I believe you are saying the indoor coil and furnace/air handler will be new regardless of R410A or R22.. If that is correct, then If I were you , go with R22. It should last a while..

If the current condenser isn't getting much refrigerant back to the comp.. If must have high head pressure.. There could be an issue with the evap.. coil causing this.

But what do I know ? I'm in front this computer screen

 

[LD1]

Not sure which one you are calling the evap and which one the condenser.

Only the outdoor stuff will be replaced if I go r22 dry. No need to replace indoor stuff.

If I go with 410a, then the indoor stuff I already have is not compatible. Thus it would all need changed, and cost twice as much

 

[kenmac]

The indoor coil is the evaporator coil.. The outdoor is condenser..

If you only replace the condenser with R22 and next yr your evap coil springs a leak.. You'll have to replace it.. You could have as much $$ tied up in the R22 system as a new 410A system if this happens.. It's a gamble....

I have replaced customers condenser with a dry R22 unit (at their request). Then , the next yr. the evap coil sprang a leak.. I then put in a new evap coil for them... Had they replaced the entire system from the start.. they would have been $$ ahead..

That old (current) evap coil is going to go.. It's just a matter of when.

If you are getting low refrigerant to the compressor now.. That would indicate to me that you have problems in the evap coil and not the condenser.. Like I said though... I viewing this from a computer screen

 

[LD1]

Just wanted to update everyone e and ask more opinions.

Talked to HVAC guy Monday. He highly advises replacing the indoor coil as well. He is afraid there could be a blockage in there or other issues. Which caused the previous owner (with a different HVAC company) to replace the compressor.

So that said, I told him to get me a quote for the outdoor unit + indoor coil.

He got back to me yesterday afternoon. $2650, half now half when done. That's for a 2-ton 410a unit.

I asked about 1.5 ton units and his words to me were "I cannot find one in a brand I like" apparently 1.5 tons aren't that common anymore.

So what are some thoughts on this? Price? Sound right? Its more than I was wanting to spend, but if I call and maybe save a few bucks elsewhere I am sure I will still get a bill from this guy. He was out back in winter trying to diagnose and add r22. He said he wouldn't charge for that and just be part of the total for a new system.

 

[LD1]

I forgot to mention that it is a comfortmaker by carrier

 

[Gafn]

LD1

Having been the child of an owner of an AC company - I have many years of experience (father took me to work starting at 11, and heck I learned a trade)....
Be very careful of a "Blockage" - AC is a closed loop system, so the only way anything can get into the system to block anything is if something came apart, like the last compressor - valves, piston... etc... The R22 systems uses a capillary system to diffuse the Freon into the evap coil. The holes in this are tiny... in the micron range, this causes flash expansion of the liquid into a gas. If these are blocked - the evap coil is wasted, and you are money ahead to replace the coil.
R 22 has a target in 2015 of a 90% reduction in manufacture and use, and a 100% reduction by 2030, so R22 will still available, however expect the price to start skyrocketing.

Attention must be made when over-sizing an AC unit. the AC unit must be able to run an appropriate amount of time, to exchange enough air over the coils, so as to de-humidify the room/house. A over sized system will run to short an amount of time, and reach the desired temperature without adequate air exchange to remove the humidity. I don't know why your humidity levels are like there, but in GA, you want your system to be able to extract the humidity, as we have a high level of it.

One thing you may not have considered... split units from Mitsubishi work fantastically well, and the average mechanic with electrical knowledge, a set of gauges and a vacuum pump can install them. Google them if you have the knowledge and skills you can save a fair amount of $$. Of course these are best when you don't have existing duct work, like in a new shop, as they only require a hole large enough for the freon pipes, and electrical.

I would install new - including the evap coils, if a blockage is suspected, else you will fight this system, and cause headaches with the tenants.

Good luck

 

[Buppies]

We faced similar problem elected to go with completely new system 15 Seer 3.5 ton unit from Trane. The difference in price from 13 seer to 15 seer was $400 dollars and over ten years $40 per year. The old outdoor unit was trash due to corrosion and difficult to find unit to mate up with older air handler. Everybody's price for various units was basically the same and we have had good luck with Traneheat and A/C

 

[LD1]

Going from 1.5 ton to 2 ton on an 1100sq ft apartment I wouldnt consider oversized.

And the contamination from previous compressor failure is what this hvac guy is suspecting too.

I am just wondering about the price. Does 2650 seem reasonable for that 2-ton unit installed with new inside coil?

OR should I shop around for someone willing to install a lesser quality (perhaps), 1.5 ton unit?

Not too concerned about seer rating. They are efficient and well insulated apartments. And I do not pay the electric bill. So I will see no savings of a higher eff unit