Rifle Ammo question?
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RobertN
Super Member
Someone has already mentioned Lee reloading equipment. They used to advertise a complete deal, with dice and everything, for pretty inexspensive. If I was a beginner, I would look at thier stuff.
I still use a single stage press. I have all RCBS stuff, which is a lot more expensive than the Lee. I shoot enough to make it worth loading, in addition to just liking to expieriment. But, I do not shoot enough to justify ading a progressive press.
It can be time consuming. But, I have my press on a portable table, like the Black and Decker "WorkMate". I can watch CSI or whatever while I lube and size cases. The same for cleaning primer pockets and flash holes. Once the trimmer is set up, the cases go through pretty easy. I do pay really close attention when working with podwer charges, especially with pistol cartridges and powder where it is easy to throw a double charge.
I just putter with it, so if it takes me a few evenings, at an hour or two an evening, it's no big deal. I have loaded a 100 44mag, 44acp, or .357 in and evening though. But, those were proven loads where everything was set.
My .308 loads, out of a Remington 700 Varmit model, consistently shoot MOA out past 300 yards. At 100 yards, about 0.6MOA. I believe I could cut that down with more fine tuning. That's a Sierra hunting bullet too, not a moly-match bullet or anything.
Check out Lee; I kow they used to have a complete deal for like $100 or so.
I still use a single stage press. I have all RCBS stuff, which is a lot more expensive than the Lee. I shoot enough to make it worth loading, in addition to just liking to expieriment. But, I do not shoot enough to justify ading a progressive press.
It can be time consuming. But, I have my press on a portable table, like the Black and Decker "WorkMate". I can watch CSI or whatever while I lube and size cases. The same for cleaning primer pockets and flash holes. Once the trimmer is set up, the cases go through pretty easy. I do pay really close attention when working with podwer charges, especially with pistol cartridges and powder where it is easy to throw a double charge.
I just putter with it, so if it takes me a few evenings, at an hour or two an evening, it's no big deal. I have loaded a 100 44mag, 44acp, or .357 in and evening though. But, those were proven loads where everything was set.
My .308 loads, out of a Remington 700 Varmit model, consistently shoot MOA out past 300 yards. At 100 yards, about 0.6MOA. I believe I could cut that down with more fine tuning. That's a Sierra hunting bullet too, not a moly-match bullet or anything.
Check out Lee; I kow they used to have a complete deal for like $100 or so.
pbenven -
<font color="blue">Thanks, I had never considered what happens to those little nuggets of hot lead after they leave my property. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif </font>
Yes - I see the sarcasm you included in the above statement. But the whole point is that those "little nuggets" should never LEAVE your property to begin with! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
<font color="blue">Give me a break. Attached a shot of my back yard for clarity. </font>
I simply stated 1) use a shotgun, 2) a plot of land 130 yards square isn't appropriate for ANY rifle use unless under dire circumstances, 3) I'd have a problem with you shooting a rifle on your place toward mine if we were neighbors.
You seem to imply I'm some sort of a "gun prude" and I worded my response too strongly. Neither could be further from the truth as (1) the shooting sports (all types) are a great activity for folks of all ages, and 2) when it comes to firearm safety, “too strong of language” simply doesn’t exist. Sorry, but I refuse to be squelched when I see someone considering what I consider (and still consider even after looking at your "back yard" picture) foolish.
Your picture is nice, but one of the first rules of shooting is to consider what is BEYOND your target - and you have very little backstop before the next ridge which is obviously not your property. You imply that it's no "big deal" to shoot something in that direction because of, well, I guess that line of brush or whatever would stop your bullet or that there “isn’t much” back behind it. (1) Trust me - it won’t stop projectiles most of the time, and (2) I still have no idea what really lies beyond your property line. (Does someone have a house back there? A cabin? Are they raising livestock? etc. ) Even when shooting on my property (which is fairly sizeable, but not giant by any means, and in a very rural area) I will only shoot the in certain areas/directions - even with my .22
I’m disappointed by your sarcastic retort. Unfortunately it shows an unwillingness to accept criticism intended to keep you and others safe.
Rowski -
Sorry for the "threadjacking." Firearm safety (or lack thereof) seemed to be an important issue to bring up here.
<font color="blue">Thanks, I had never considered what happens to those little nuggets of hot lead after they leave my property. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif </font>
Yes - I see the sarcasm you included in the above statement. But the whole point is that those "little nuggets" should never LEAVE your property to begin with! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
<font color="blue">Give me a break. Attached a shot of my back yard for clarity. </font>
I simply stated 1) use a shotgun, 2) a plot of land 130 yards square isn't appropriate for ANY rifle use unless under dire circumstances, 3) I'd have a problem with you shooting a rifle on your place toward mine if we were neighbors.
You seem to imply I'm some sort of a "gun prude" and I worded my response too strongly. Neither could be further from the truth as (1) the shooting sports (all types) are a great activity for folks of all ages, and 2) when it comes to firearm safety, “too strong of language” simply doesn’t exist. Sorry, but I refuse to be squelched when I see someone considering what I consider (and still consider even after looking at your "back yard" picture) foolish.
Your picture is nice, but one of the first rules of shooting is to consider what is BEYOND your target - and you have very little backstop before the next ridge which is obviously not your property. You imply that it's no "big deal" to shoot something in that direction because of, well, I guess that line of brush or whatever would stop your bullet or that there “isn’t much” back behind it. (1) Trust me - it won’t stop projectiles most of the time, and (2) I still have no idea what really lies beyond your property line. (Does someone have a house back there? A cabin? Are they raising livestock? etc. ) Even when shooting on my property (which is fairly sizeable, but not giant by any means, and in a very rural area) I will only shoot the in certain areas/directions - even with my .22
I’m disappointed by your sarcastic retort. Unfortunately it shows an unwillingness to accept criticism intended to keep you and others safe.
Rowski -
Sorry for the "threadjacking." Firearm safety (or lack thereof) seemed to be an important issue to bring up here.
looch
Veteran Member
As much as I'd love to get into the details about why your concerns are unfounded, I won't. Besides, the only time I shoot directly at my neighbor's houses is during target practice after a few too many.
<font color="blue">As much as I'd love to get into the details about why your concerns are unfounded, I won't. </font>
Most likely you won't not because my concerns are unfounded, but because you know I'm right on this one and just can't bring yourself to admit it. Sorry, even if you shot from one side of your property to the other with a "light" 110 gr. .30-06 load, (assuming a relatively "slow" velocity for the wt. bullet - 3000 fps) you'd still have a bullet that had over 1500 foot/lbs of energy 20 yards beyond your property line. That’s more energy than a full power 150 gr. 30-30 has at the muzzle! “Unfounded concerns?” Yea, right.....
<font color="blue">Besides, the only time I shoot directly at my neighbor's houses is during target practice after a few too many. </font>
I find it sad you approach firearm safety with such a sarcastic and flippant attitude. (I have little doubt you're doing it simply to "get under my skin.") I'll just have to hope if you choose to shoot rifles on your place without a proper backstop & consideration for what's beyond your target, you don’t accidentally kill something – or someone. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Rowski -
Sorry for the "threadjacking." Firearm safety (or lack thereof) seemed to be an important issue to bring up here.
Most likely you won't not because my concerns are unfounded, but because you know I'm right on this one and just can't bring yourself to admit it. Sorry, even if you shot from one side of your property to the other with a "light" 110 gr. .30-06 load, (assuming a relatively "slow" velocity for the wt. bullet - 3000 fps) you'd still have a bullet that had over 1500 foot/lbs of energy 20 yards beyond your property line. That’s more energy than a full power 150 gr. 30-30 has at the muzzle! “Unfounded concerns?” Yea, right.....
<font color="blue">Besides, the only time I shoot directly at my neighbor's houses is during target practice after a few too many. </font>
I find it sad you approach firearm safety with such a sarcastic and flippant attitude. (I have little doubt you're doing it simply to "get under my skin.") I'll just have to hope if you choose to shoot rifles on your place without a proper backstop & consideration for what's beyond your target, you don’t accidentally kill something – or someone. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Rowski -
Sorry for the "threadjacking." Firearm safety (or lack thereof) seemed to be an important issue to bring up here.
looch
Veteran Member
Ranchman,
Let's straighten this out.
We were talking about cartridges and their suitability to different situations.
Why you found it necessary to start professing the virtues of firearm safety to what I gather to be a pretty darned safety conscious group of people is beyond me.
I assure you that I have passed the firearms safety course that is mandatory here in Canada and to have the nerve to say that I choose to shoot rifles on my place without a proper backstop & consideration for what's beyond my target raises my ire, to put it as gently as I know how.
I assure you that it is perfectly safe to fire a high-powered rifle from my backyard - but I don’t expect you to believe that without seeing it for yourself.
As for my sarcastic and flippant attitude – it isn’t towards firearm safety.
Let's straighten this out.
We were talking about cartridges and their suitability to different situations.
Why you found it necessary to start professing the virtues of firearm safety to what I gather to be a pretty darned safety conscious group of people is beyond me.
I assure you that I have passed the firearms safety course that is mandatory here in Canada and to have the nerve to say that I choose to shoot rifles on my place without a proper backstop & consideration for what's beyond my target raises my ire, to put it as gently as I know how.
I assure you that it is perfectly safe to fire a high-powered rifle from my backyard - but I don’t expect you to believe that without seeing it for yourself.
As for my sarcastic and flippant attitude – it isn’t towards firearm safety.
pbenven -
Fine - let's look at why I have an issue with your approach and attitude, starting with your earlier post...
<font color="blue"> I was also thinking of a varmint cartridge (.25-20, .220, .223) but that would be a little large for use around the home (3.5 acres in the country).</font>
Ok - all of these cartridges have given energies in “standard” loadings. Picking on the .223 for a second, at the muzzle you are looking at about 1200+- ft/lbs (depending of course on a number of variables.) Your “gut” saying that is too much is telling you correctly when you are talking about a cartridge that the military considers to have an effective range of 500 m (or about 547 yards).
Again, if your plot was square, since it would only measure 130 x 130 yards, it is obvious that a .223 (and others) are a "poor" choice.
<font color="blue">That 30-06 light load might be just the ticket. </font>
/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif WHAT??? This is where I start to seriously question your reasoning. If 1200 ft/lbs of .223 was “a little large”, how are you now thinking these "light loads" in the .30-06 which have ~1500 ft/lb at 150 yards are more appropriate? This makes no sense.
<font color="blue">Why you found it necessary to start professing the virtues of firearm safety to what I gather to be a pretty darned safety conscious group of people is beyond me. </font>
Not everyone - just you or anyone else who would advocate using a rifle on such a small piece of property as you have described (i.e. random varmint removal). The only reason the "light load" .30-06 was suggested in the first place was due to accuracy concerns vs. Remington's Accelerator cartridge. We weren't talking about backstops & safety as such - you were the one that brought that up - first saying that 1200 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle in a cartridge was "too much" and then saying in the very same post that something that generates 1500 ft/lbs 150 yards down range wasn't./forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif To me, that post, along with your subsequent ones show either (1) a lack of understanding regarding projectile ballistics, (2) a lack of knowledge regarding basic safety procedures, or (3) contempt for the safety of others.
<font color="blue"> I assure you that I have passed the firearms safety course that is mandatory here in Canada and to have the nerve to say that I choose to shoot rifles on my place without a proper backstop & consideration for what's beyond my target raises my ire, to put it as gently as I know how. </font>
I’m sorry you are so offended, but getting a driver license doesn't make one a "good" driver just as taking some govt. course on firearm safety doesn’t make one a “safe” shooter. Don’t know about you, but I see plenty of terrible drivers on the road - most all of which surely have licenses - doing all sorts of stupid stuff - endangering themselves and others.
While such courses have some merit, it doesn’t make one an expert. I too have “credentials” I could spit out, but the courses I’ve taken or personal experience doesn’t really matter with regards to this discussion. I’m the first to admit there are those out there who have FAR more expertise than I do. I don’t have all the answers - never claimed to, but we are talking about some pretty basic principles here and I would seriously question anyone who would be shooting a rifle in the manner you are advocating.
Your photo - intended to “straighten me out” - shows NO backstop what so ever. Even if there were an acceptable backstop on your property, what are the chances your <font color="blue">”...racoons, stray cats, and possibly even the odd coyorte”</font> will sit still in front of it while you take your shot? No, to me your photo shows any number of ricochet hazards along with property you don’t own clearly visible (i.e. property where an untended shot could easily wind up.)
<font color="blue">I assure you that it is perfectly safe to fire a high-powered rifle from my backyard - but I don’t expect you to believe that without seeing it for yourself.</font>
Your photo, which I assume is from your “backyard”, certainly doesn’t show such a scenario. Is it impossible to create a relatively safe shooting environment on 3.5 acres? Yes - but it takes effort. Your lawn/yard - where you are most likely to find the local cat trespassing you wish to take out doesn’t constitute a “safe shooting environment.”
<font color="blue">As for my sarcastic and flippant attitude – it isn’t towards firearm safety.</font>
Look back at your previous posts. Start from your very first response to me and work down - if you read them objectively, I think you’ll see why I disagree with your above statement.
Fine - let's look at why I have an issue with your approach and attitude, starting with your earlier post...
<font color="blue"> I was also thinking of a varmint cartridge (.25-20, .220, .223) but that would be a little large for use around the home (3.5 acres in the country).</font>
Ok - all of these cartridges have given energies in “standard” loadings. Picking on the .223 for a second, at the muzzle you are looking at about 1200+- ft/lbs (depending of course on a number of variables.) Your “gut” saying that is too much is telling you correctly when you are talking about a cartridge that the military considers to have an effective range of 500 m (or about 547 yards).
Again, if your plot was square, since it would only measure 130 x 130 yards, it is obvious that a .223 (and others) are a "poor" choice.
<font color="blue">That 30-06 light load might be just the ticket. </font>
/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif WHAT??? This is where I start to seriously question your reasoning. If 1200 ft/lbs of .223 was “a little large”, how are you now thinking these "light loads" in the .30-06 which have ~1500 ft/lb at 150 yards are more appropriate? This makes no sense.
<font color="blue">Why you found it necessary to start professing the virtues of firearm safety to what I gather to be a pretty darned safety conscious group of people is beyond me. </font>
Not everyone - just you or anyone else who would advocate using a rifle on such a small piece of property as you have described (i.e. random varmint removal). The only reason the "light load" .30-06 was suggested in the first place was due to accuracy concerns vs. Remington's Accelerator cartridge. We weren't talking about backstops & safety as such - you were the one that brought that up - first saying that 1200 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle in a cartridge was "too much" and then saying in the very same post that something that generates 1500 ft/lbs 150 yards down range wasn't./forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif To me, that post, along with your subsequent ones show either (1) a lack of understanding regarding projectile ballistics, (2) a lack of knowledge regarding basic safety procedures, or (3) contempt for the safety of others.
<font color="blue"> I assure you that I have passed the firearms safety course that is mandatory here in Canada and to have the nerve to say that I choose to shoot rifles on my place without a proper backstop & consideration for what's beyond my target raises my ire, to put it as gently as I know how. </font>
I’m sorry you are so offended, but getting a driver license doesn't make one a "good" driver just as taking some govt. course on firearm safety doesn’t make one a “safe” shooter. Don’t know about you, but I see plenty of terrible drivers on the road - most all of which surely have licenses - doing all sorts of stupid stuff - endangering themselves and others.
While such courses have some merit, it doesn’t make one an expert. I too have “credentials” I could spit out, but the courses I’ve taken or personal experience doesn’t really matter with regards to this discussion. I’m the first to admit there are those out there who have FAR more expertise than I do. I don’t have all the answers - never claimed to, but we are talking about some pretty basic principles here and I would seriously question anyone who would be shooting a rifle in the manner you are advocating.
Your photo - intended to “straighten me out” - shows NO backstop what so ever. Even if there were an acceptable backstop on your property, what are the chances your <font color="blue">”...racoons, stray cats, and possibly even the odd coyorte”</font> will sit still in front of it while you take your shot? No, to me your photo shows any number of ricochet hazards along with property you don’t own clearly visible (i.e. property where an untended shot could easily wind up.)
<font color="blue">I assure you that it is perfectly safe to fire a high-powered rifle from my backyard - but I don’t expect you to believe that without seeing it for yourself.</font>
Your photo, which I assume is from your “backyard”, certainly doesn’t show such a scenario. Is it impossible to create a relatively safe shooting environment on 3.5 acres? Yes - but it takes effort. Your lawn/yard - where you are most likely to find the local cat trespassing you wish to take out doesn’t constitute a “safe shooting environment.”
<font color="blue">As for my sarcastic and flippant attitude – it isn’t towards firearm safety.</font>
Look back at your previous posts. Start from your very first response to me and work down - if you read them objectively, I think you’ll see why I disagree with your above statement.
fishman
Veteran Member
I think Ranchman has some valid points. A stray animal is not likely to pose in front of a safe backstop so's you can shoot it. Now, it is certainly true that a high-powered rifle can be discharged in complete safety on a 3.5 acre parcel in a controlled situation with an appropriate backstop or berm to halt the bullet.
An alternative: A shotgun with #4 lead is an excellent varmint gun with little chance of unintended harm in Pbenven's situation. It's versatile enough to eliminate just about any pest with the correct ammo. What do you think about this option, Ranchman and/or Pbenven?
An alternative: A shotgun with #4 lead is an excellent varmint gun with little chance of unintended harm in Pbenven's situation. It's versatile enough to eliminate just about any pest with the correct ammo. What do you think about this option, Ranchman and/or Pbenven?
Egon
Epic Contributor
seems to me that all shooting should be done on a range under controlled conditions.
Hard to run into a hunting situation where one is quaranteed at least a mile of line of sight.
Might have to restrict hunting to a range with a berm.
Egon
Hard to run into a hunting situation where one is quaranteed at least a mile of line of sight.
Might have to restrict hunting to a range with a berm.
Egon
<font color="blue">Hard to run into a hunting situation where one is quaranteed at least a mile of line of sight. </font>
Hmmm. Well, not that hard - at least not around here.
Granted, my place is only about 3/4 of a mile on it's long side, but my place is downright tiny compared to my neighbors (multiple 1000's). Remember that a square mile is only 640 acres.
There are lots of folks who lease their land for hunting - and it isn't that hard to find something in the 1000's of acres. If you decide to hunt in West Texas, it is not uncommon to lease 10K-50K acres for hunting.
If dollars are at a premium, for $40 you can get a Texas Annual Public Hunting Permit that opens about 1.2 million acres of land within the state for hunting all sorts of game from deer to waterfowl. The State has some specific safety restrictions on shooting practices as well - i.e. certain areas are restricted to “shotgun hunting only” due to safety concerns about bullet travel - and these areas are a LOT larger than 3.5 acres.
<font color="blue">Might have to restrict hunting to a range with a berm. </font>
As I had said earlier, I am VERY choosy when shooting - even .22's - so that any projectile that leaves the barrel stays within my property line - and I expect the same from my neighbors.
Hunting on my place is limited to areas where there are natural geographic features that serve as appropriate backstops and I have made a range specifically for target shooting with a large berm (in addition to the natural geography as a "backup" stop. If there is not a natural barrier or angle involved that minimizes the possibility of the projectile continuing on (i.e. shooting at a sharp angle down from a bluff), then it is "off limits."
Yes, I have refused to take shots on game due to concerns about where the bullet would land if I missed or if it passed through and kept on traveling - be it on my own property or property I have leased/been invited to hunt on. To me this is a cardinal rule of shooting and common sense to boot. In a nutshell, I do "practice what I preach."
Hmmm. Well, not that hard - at least not around here.
Granted, my place is only about 3/4 of a mile on it's long side, but my place is downright tiny compared to my neighbors (multiple 1000's). Remember that a square mile is only 640 acres.
There are lots of folks who lease their land for hunting - and it isn't that hard to find something in the 1000's of acres. If you decide to hunt in West Texas, it is not uncommon to lease 10K-50K acres for hunting.
If dollars are at a premium, for $40 you can get a Texas Annual Public Hunting Permit that opens about 1.2 million acres of land within the state for hunting all sorts of game from deer to waterfowl. The State has some specific safety restrictions on shooting practices as well - i.e. certain areas are restricted to “shotgun hunting only” due to safety concerns about bullet travel - and these areas are a LOT larger than 3.5 acres.
<font color="blue">Might have to restrict hunting to a range with a berm. </font>
As I had said earlier, I am VERY choosy when shooting - even .22's - so that any projectile that leaves the barrel stays within my property line - and I expect the same from my neighbors.
Hunting on my place is limited to areas where there are natural geographic features that serve as appropriate backstops and I have made a range specifically for target shooting with a large berm (in addition to the natural geography as a "backup" stop. If there is not a natural barrier or angle involved that minimizes the possibility of the projectile continuing on (i.e. shooting at a sharp angle down from a bluff), then it is "off limits."
Yes, I have refused to take shots on game due to concerns about where the bullet would land if I missed or if it passed through and kept on traveling - be it on my own property or property I have leased/been invited to hunt on. To me this is a cardinal rule of shooting and common sense to boot. In a nutshell, I do "practice what I preach."