RIP or REPair?

[Sabooo]

Hoping for some counsel for those of you that may have more experience than I in repairing old iron. The victim is a 1950ish Ferguson TO30. Been a very good tractor, and in the family's care for almost 30 years.

When I went to give it its spring oil change, I was horrified to see milky grey goop coming out of the oil pan. Hoping it was just come sort of freakish condensation issue, I changed the oil and filter. Within 15 minutes of starting it up, the oil was again Milky grey on the stick AND the oil level was rising in the pan. Something bad is happening!

You should know that this tractor has had only water in it every season for as long as I've known it. My father-in-law started this tradition, and was always dilligent to drain it out before the weather changed in Fall. Apparently, I was late this year. Have a look at the attachment on this post and the next. I pulled the valve cover praying for a freeze out plug. (notice the lovely colored oil in the corners?) Not seeing anything pushed out, I was scratching my head when I noticed some water between the headbolts. Cleaning off the grime revealed a 2" crack in the top of the head, with water still seeping out of it.

Removing the head uncovered lots more ooky oil, and also alot of (for lack of a better word) gunk in the block.

A quick look around finds me a reman cylinder head for about 700 with valves, but its in MO and I'm in PA, which will translate to probably $150 - $200 to ship via LTL. Since I can see there is an issue with contamination in the block, I am suspecting some sort of issue there too.

Is it realistic to expect that no freeze damage occurred in the block when there is obvious freeze damage to the head? I find that I'm pretty pessimistic about this, and am expecting to have to either repair (if possible) or replace the block as well.

So how about it? Is this old Fergusson worth a $3000 repair bill, or do I just chalk one up to experience and learn to mix coolant on the next machine?

The question really isn't about whether to repair or replace, I've already decided to buy another machine. My question is what to do with this old girl?

Thanks in advance for your counsel.

 

[Sabooo]

Another look.

 

[JerryG]

Take the head to a good shop to have it checked. If that is the only crack, they will be able to weld it up a cheaper than the prices that you have listed. If there were cracks in the valve seats or in the ports, it would be better to get another head, especially if there is one in the seat area.

 

[RobertN]

Do that first. Then if they can't weld it, check Ebay. Also, check the photo ad's and classifieds at ytmag.com

 

[RobJ]

On an old Int. 384 I gound out the cracked area real good, cleaned it and covered it with some epoxy. It's still holding. Since it's an old tractor the cooling system doesn't build up much pressure (old cap, few leaks, etc). They is pretty cheap to, amazing how that epoxy will stick and hold just about anything.

Good Luck, Rob

 

[PineRidge]

Don't scrap it, JP Weld it. Lots of ideas, testimonials, and applications here


Will say that I used JB Weld myself to repair a crack (actually it was a small hole) in a water pump casting. It held for months until I could find a replacement pump. Thought about leaving the repaired pump on since the epoxy was holding so well.

 

[Hib]

Had a cracked head on my TO30 and contacted a fellow in southern Illinois. Dang if I can remember his name or business, but I found him searching the Net. He sent me a completely refurbished head with ground valve seats and all in a wooden crate with a prepaid return postage for the bad one. Seems it cost me about $180. Mine was cracked thru the valve seats and the ole boy told me he had never seen a head yet that he could not repair. Try a search and see if ya can find him. Think I'll look and see if I can find him for you. Go to this site/forum Harry Ferguson Tractor Information you should find some help there. Good luck!

 

[Birdhunter1]

I have used JB weld on a crack on a block on an International Super A one time and it sealed it up great. The crack was on the outside near the water pump on the front of the motor.

HIB, by chance was the guy in Creal Springs, IL? Thompsonville, IL?
Or would the name of the place be called Mac-Weld in Carterville, IL?

 

[Onthesauk]

I've been researching another alternative for a cracked block, something called stitch welding. Drill holes side by side down the length of the crack, tap, screw in a special fitting, snap off the head and then grind the whole thing smooth. Have a neighbor who has seen it done in an industrial setting and lasted over 20 years. Ask around at good machine shops. My challange is that I need it done in chassie, too expensive otherwise.

 

[Sabooo]

Thanks everyone for the tips - I will take the head to one of the local engine shops and see what they can do. My biggest concern is still that while the crack visible in the picture was clearly allowing water to seep out of the head, it does not account for the water into the oil unless it goes much deeper into the heart of the metal, or it is not the only fracture.

We'll let the experts have a look and see what they think of it all.

 

[Sabooo]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( My challange is that I need it done in chassis, too expensive otherwise. )</font>

I guess this is the heart of the issue - I have no doubt that no matter what I uncover through all of this there are available repairs out there. But sooner or later the cost of the repair is going to outweight the utility of the machine.

I'm a bit hamstrung as I have no way to tow the tractor to the shop. I either need to pay to have it taken in, or find a way to fix it onsite. If there are deep down block issues, I'm not sure I even have the skills (or tools) to find them, let alone fix em.

But for now I'll keep at it and see how far I get.

 

[Birdhunter1]

Why is it so difficult for you to remove the head on it?

 

[Hib]

Birdhunter, for the life of me I can't remember. This was about 8 years ago.

Sabooo, I had never really worked on an engine untill my TO30 needed some TLC. Bought a repair manual and tore into it. Totally rebuilt engine, rings, cylinders, sleeves, main bearings, clutch and pressure plate. Rebuilt oil pump and govenor. Paid to have crank ground and a rebuilt head othewise did it all myself. Great learning experience. I was working a LOT of hours at the time so didn't work on it only a hour or so now and then, took me 6 months. Didn't need any special tools. Total cost was in the $1400 neighborhood. If you have room to keep her around and a few spare hours, you might think about fixing it yourself /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I'm gonna paint her pretty one of these days.

 

[Sabooo]

BirdHunter - The head is already off - as stated I plan on taking to a machine/engine shop on Monday if time permits.

The whole project comes down to time and money, and how much of both to dump into this project. I have a 60hr+ a week job, 2 kids and a lovely wife that all get time before the tractors do. There's not alot left over each week.

It can stay in the garage bay where it is (Its lived there for 30 years already, a few more wont hurt /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) I'm coming around to the opinion that since it's already broken its pretty unlikely that a bit of 'on the job training' will make matters too much worse.

So be prepared - lots of newbie tractor mechanic questions likely to be incoming over the next few weeks.

 

[Birdhunter1]

You really don't have too big of a fix there if you get it to a machine shop and see how bad it is. Most likely that crack can be JB welded over after grinding it out.

As for the water being mixed with you roil I wouldn't worry too much about it, just wipe/clean everything real good, take off you oil pump and run kerosene through it (do not use a parts washer on it) and wipe it all off.
Once you have it all running agin check the oil religiously and change it after maybe 8-20 hours. If it still looks like oil then you're in good shape!

 

[JoeinTX]

Yeah, I think everyone is pretty much on here. Lot's of people have fixed-up bigger issues with the JB Welds and such and had the machine ticking again for years of service.

You mentioned the $3000 figure. I ask you-can you find a decent replacement for this rig for anything less? I bought an 8N last year for $1000 with not too dissimilar problems money-wise. I did what I was comfortable with (replacing PTO shaft, radiator, carb kit, etc) and then still sent it to the local shop for a motor rebuild. I wound up spending another $1900 on top of the original price, but it's now a fine running little toot and money well spent. Consider the sentimental value on top of that and $3000 to get this little outfit back in field shape is nothing.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

There isn't much that man has made that can't be RE-made or at least repaired. It's just a matter of cost vs. practicality. Sometimes pratical goes sailing right out the window when a project like this pops up. You'll have to be the judge of "how much is too much"?

I recently sold a tractor (Ford 3000) that's been mine for 34 years. It was worn out, broke down, tired, and all used up. I got about 75% of the tractors "in good shape" value when I sold it. In turn, I then bought a mint 3000 Ford to replace it, spending just $990 more than I sold the old beater for. It needed an engine rebuild, new clutch, hydraulic work, new rubber, new paint, and a laundry list of small items. I figure it would have cost about $3000 to bring the old one back to the standards of its replacement. So, I "saved" over 2 grand that way.

But I no longer have the first new tractor I ever owned. (Yes, it was like watching someone haul off your first born child....)

I'm not a big fan of "patching" engine parts. I'd explore options on getting a rebuilt head if you plan on keeping the old tractor.

And I'd spend a few coins on a gallon of anti-freeze before new winter.

 

[skent]

The JB weld will work. I have a 1950 Case with the same problem. My Uncle bought it new in 1950, and the first winter he owned it, they had an early freeze and he ended up with a 6 inch crack in the side if the block, a 2 inch crack in the head (similar to yours) and a cracked radiator tank. They used something similar to JB Weld (was not an epoxy though) and it would hold for a few years and need to be re-done. Then I bought the tractor from him in the 1970's, I cleaned it up and used JB weld in all the cracks. It hasn't leaked since, and it's still a working tractor (not a showpiece - yet)