Road building, stockpiling topsoil, subbase buildup. Scraper tips appreciated.

[Dadnatron]

Basics as I figure it.

1300ft of road, 12' wide at 6" = 460T of aggregate.

My thinking is around 6" of #2 and drive on it for a while, then add 6" of crusher run/DGA another 500T.

At local delivered and spread prices, its $13.30/T from a quarry that Google Maps says is about 12m away.

My local guy is going to try to get by next Monday with his thoughts. Hopefully, he will be able to give me a direction after seeing what I've done thus far.

 

[Redlands Okie]

Not a full time expert on road building by any means. Over the years and seeing how much gravel is applied to muddy spots and ruts on various drives i have worked on that you should consider the cloth under the roadbed. I suspect you could use at least a third less gravel than the 12 inches you mention above. Way less money and work later maintaining it. Regardless of wet season or dry season at time of the building of the road.

 

[Dadnatron]

I've thought about that Okie.

I do have a few spots at least that I will definitely use fabric. I've seen how the rain/water tends to seep down the hill resulting in low wet spots which are likely to soften and pump forever. I'd like to use fabric for the entire thing and cut the cost of aggregate. Overall, aggregate, at the amount I mentioned is just shy of $12K. If I could cut that by at least $2K with fabric, it would pay for itself, and perhaps give better long term benefit.

 

[teg]

Sounds like you got this... What sort of traffic are you talking about (both size and amount). That does sound like pretty thick 6" for both layer. If you do 4" of each, is that enough to pay for the fabric?

 

[boggen]

I've been slowed extremely due to the weather we have had over the last month.

I went ahead and rented a D6K which carved the road in a jiffy. Well worth it, regardless of my thoughts of doing it with my scraper. The speed at which I was able to cut it made all the difference.

I still have some final grading to do.

I initially had an expected road width of 11ft drive-able surface. This gave me at least 3 feet to the inside for a ditch. My current question is, can I 'build the ditch' simply by pouring gravel on the road surface and then back filling against it with topsoil? Basically, as it is now, I have an 'approximately' 2:1 slope on the uphill side terminating at the current road surface. If I build up the road with 6-8" gravel, leaving space between the side slope, and the gravel covered with topsoil and planted with grass, will that allow for enough of a ditch, given there is very minimal area that would drain this direction?

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i just cringed when looking at the road. seems way to close the pond / lake / stream. and just asking for "mud holes" to be had and form for years to come. and in that you will be throwing rock at it left and right in order to try and get a good firm base layer.

the opposite side of the lake. you need to get a ditch in. and get that higher hill side back away from the road. right now water just draining right down on the road. and BAM you are making ruts through the driveway. driveway should never have standing water on it, and any ditches should allow the water to move away from the road and not have standing water in them. any water near road = wet mud/dirt and more so wet clay, which likes to slide and move about when it is wet. and destroys the road.

overall, your road is going to be a pain in rear to maintain due to all the curves you placed in it. and trying to maintain a crown (middle of road is higher in center than outside edge of road). having TNT (top and tilt) setup for the 3pt hitch would most likely be wanted, and if me required. to help reduce time spent maintining the road.

i would seriously reconsider, and move section of road near pond/stream further away. so if you have a "rotatory mower" (many folks lamen call them bush hogs), you can backup and just a little bit over pond edge. and/or simple mow straight down the edge with a regular riding mower / zero turn or like. without any thing else. give yourself room for a 2 to 3 passes. wet, icy, snow conditions = sliding right into lake and having vehicle totaled due to water damage. those 2 to 3 passes of say a 60" mower deck, puts enough grass / dirt there. so you can pull off to the side with vehicle without being in middle of road and letting other family members get by you while out at the pond/lake/stream.

mud pond / clay pond = you are not going to be seeing fish, most of the time water will be cloudy and unable to see beyond a couple feet depth if 1 foot depth. and/or there will be vegitation / water weeds growing up close to shore line. water weeds / plants tend to grow from 4 feet depth any deeper sun light does not reach down, but 4 feet or shallower and water weeds will grow.

 

[boggen]

I've thought about that Okie.

I do have a few spots at least that I will definitely use fabric. I've seen how the rain/water tends to seep down the hill resulting in low wet spots which are likely to soften and pump forever. I'd like to use fabric for the entire thing and cut the cost of aggregate. Overall, aggregate, at the amount I mentioned is just shy of $12K. If I could cut that by at least $2K with fabric, it would pay for itself, and perhaps give better long term benefit.

the driveway is long enough, that yourself and/or family members / friends / contractors. or not going to take your driveway nice and slow, but rather run the MPH up to 30 to 40MPH. those higher MPH. are going to tear up your road quickly, from wash boarding (bunch of little bumps), to pot holes, to ruts, to simply smashing the rock down into the mud and be lost forever. would consider going with larger base rock, and more of it, then apply your crusher run, vs trying to use fabric. fabric you will more likely mess up and tear up. more so with any sort of maintenance with box blade with rippers down, to land plane, to rear blade if it has rippers. use of rippers = tearing up first few inches of rock so it can be moved and then re-spreading it out.

 

[Dadnatron]

Boggen,

I appreciate your thoughts. However, I am confused on something which has been said a few times and which you reiterate.

You say that essentially 'maintaining the road' is likely to catch the fabric and tear it up. How does that happen if there is at a minimum 8" of aggregate over it? I've spoken with several people who build roads in the area, and they use fabric often, and have never mentioned this as an issue.

This is a question I have oft wished to ask.

As far as your initial post.

Concerning how 'close' it appears to be to the pond. At the closest spot, it is approximately 30' and 3' higher than the pond. Along the pond is where I decided to put my 'pull out' as you mentioned. Simply because it is the location which is approximately midway and can easily see both the beginning and the end of the road. Anything which appears extremely close, is simply cut waste which had to go 'somewhere'.

The graded 'cut' is approximately 20' as it sits, up against the bank. I did this purposely to allow for a ditch on the uphill side. This is not easily noted on the pictures I have shown. Although, at this moment, I do not have an uphill ditch in place. All contractor estimates said they did not really think that a ditch was necessary, given the very small hill which would drain towards the road. However, it is hard for me to NOT have a ditch, and as you have stated, I want to minimize as much maintenance as absolutely possible, given I can do whatever I would like at this time. I did not crown the road, but made the entire road at a slight camber throughout. I have a designated location for a culvert with another spot localized, should I find I need it. At this point, I will do nothing more than aggregate. If I find it needs another culvert, It will be easy to add. I put 3 in the current road, this road connects to, also adding an uphill ditch to that road, although I did not build it, it was approximately 80 years old according to the people in the area and had not been 'worked on' since the '80s. When I purchased the property, it was a 2 wheel track, but had obviously been built as much more. I graded it and added 200T of crusher run as well as 3 culverts and a protective ditch. It has been perfect, high, and dry since then.

Concerning mowing. This is an issue which I've thought about for some time. I have ordered a 84" flail which is on a pivot boom allowing me to offset it outside of my wheel as well as angle it to 'almost' any angle along a 180d arc. I have many areas which I have no desire to mow the sidehill, and this should alleviate those issues. Mowing the shoulder and pond edge will be no issue.

Current depth of the 60yo pond is approximately 3ft. It was 1ft until I temporarily fixed the break in the dam. In a year or two, I will completely clean out the pond. According to the folks who have done this before, there is a local guy who 'breaks the dam' and drains the water for about a week. He then hooks 2 dozers together at the blade making a 24' 'blade', goes to the top of the pond, and while the mud is still very 'soupy' begins to push it down hill. He says the mud flows out the break into a collection area which has been made with a smaller dam below the main dam. He 'stays on dry ground' by way of pushing the soupy mud. (I must admit, this part has me boggled, but he and other folk who've done it swear its so) out in front of the dozers. He keeps slow pressure on the mud and essentially, he cleans the entire pond out in this manner. He said, in a couple years, the mud will completely dry to normal topsoil, and he will come back and shape it into the surrounding landscape. He didn't bat an eye when he saw my pond. I believe the true pond depth to be about 12' at the dam and 10' in the middle. Given the current 1-3', That is a lot of mud to push out. Sounds like voodoo... and I will definitely record it. I think it is fascinating, and while I can understand the theory, the execution still seems far fetched.

 

[boggen]

Boggen,

I appreciate your thoughts. However, I am confused on something which has been said a few times and which you reiterate.

You say that essentially 'maintaining the road' is likely to catch the fabric and tear it up. How does that happen if there is at a minimum 8" of aggregate over it? I've spoken with several people who build roads in the area, and they use fabric often, and have never mentioned this as an issue.

This is a question I have oft wished to ask.

with the last post of yours. it is better cleared up. but on initial posts and pictures. it looked / sounded very ugly. and took worst case scenario. were issues would show up quickly enough within a handful of years.

with fabric, i am not a fan of it. while it has its purpose and uses. and with the grain bin / shed in picture. i am going to assume running heavier vehicles / tractors / semi's / wagons through the driveway. and to me these heavier equipment, causing ruts and additional compaction of the road. end result when you go back to fix stuff. using say some rippers on a box blade to break up the rock some so you can go back and smooth stuff out. the rippers catching and tearing up the fabric. 8" is 8" but after settling, rutting / fixing. it may be a different story.

i am expecting you to snag some fabric along the edges (along the ditches), during regular road maintenance, and using rear blade, box blade or like, to pull rock that has went down towards the ditches back up on road. and this be the area were not alot of rock if any rock at all will be covering the fabric, and you snagging it and tearing the fabric up some. if the driveway was for most part nice and straight, most likely not an issue, but with those extra set of curves in it, rear blade, box blade, land plane scrapper is not going to follow the edge of road / ditch perfectly (not running parallel but coming in at different angles) and end up gouging in here and there snagging the fabric.

also the normal RUTs, were you will get from simply driving back and forth everyday on road. were tires normally always run down the driveway. these areas going to compact more than rest of road. these areas are not going to stay 8" but end up less depth to the fabric.

fabric has its places, but if you can go with larger rock base, if you need to dig in you can dig in, and not worry about loose of fabric / tearing up the fabric. and or not worry about a mower snagging the fabric and tearing it up and out if it becomes exposed.

fabric in town for a short driveway ya ok, short simple. fabric for longer driveways more so with curves and like in it. not so much. not saying fabric will not work, but i believe it would be a bad choice for you. perhaps use fabric in a couple spots. but larger rock base might be better off. so you can make little mistakes and not tear up fabric in corners and like during maintenance.

==========

to hit on it again ditch on high side, just a little bit of water means difference between erosion and slip and slide driveway and breaking out rear blade, box blade, land plane scrapper blade to smooth road back out every few times it rains. vs with ditches and keeping water from running across it in the first place and not making any sort of ruts in driveway/road/trails. if the road was a seasonal road, and used rarely ya ok no ditch on high side, but regular daily to few times a week road/driveway... any times it is wet you will be making a mess. and more maintenance the road will need.

for me 80 acre farm, i am guessing 1/2 mile of rock (U shape around home, circle around 1 of the sheds) 3/4 mile dirt lane to lake/cabin, another 3/4 to 1 mile grass trail in pasture. i simple do not have hope in fabric lasting at least on this farm. and the pond, shed, grain bin. and what you are showing in pictures. i think it would be a bad choice. i realize rock costs more up front for the larger rock. for a good base. but makes it easier to deal with any issue that comes up.

AND, when just plain lazy, not caring what so ever. mowing, to road maintance. just going along to get it done as fast as possible, so nothing becomes a larger issue. i tear up some stuff. and i do not believe fabric would last. i would end up having the fabric wrapped around tires and pulled out. vs larger rock base, that i can just hit and go. and not worry about it.

 

[Dadnatron]

Thanks Ryan, that helps me understand better.

The grain bins are on the neighbor's property and won't be accessed via this road. The NEAR barn is ours, and the reason for the road. There should be nothing heavier than my tractor on the road typically, but a loaded dump trailer will likely roll it occasionally. The barn will be for horses, so UTVs/pickups will likely be the most it sees on a daily basis.

I understand your thinking on fabric and it makes much more sense now. I had not thought of snagging the edges. I have an excavating/grading consultant coming Monday, I'm sure he will have some more thoughts. He helped me lay out the road and was ambivalent about both fabric and ditch.

I do have a question concerning the ditch, and I suspect I already know the answer. I'll post it separately later today.

 

[Rustyiron]

He didn't bat an eye when he saw my pond. I believe the true pond depth to be about 12' at the dam and 10' in the middle. Given the current 1-3', That is a lot of mud to push out. Sounds like voodoo... and I will definitely record it. I think it is fascinating, and while I can understand the theory, the execution still seems far fetched.

Don't forget about us
I like voodoo pictures of dozers with a 8' wall of mud too :laughing: