Robbin 22hp Engine

[ernemats]

I have a 422 with a Robin engine and I live in western Pa. and I keep my pt in an unheated garage. I have almost 1,300 hours on mine and I have never had any work done to the engine other than changing spark plugs I think it is a good dependable engine. When the temp. gets down around 10 degrees I put a magnetic heater on the oil tank and leave it plugged in all the time and very seldom have I had any problem starting if the battery is fully charged and the spark plugs are good. My 422 is almost 8 years old and it still has the original battery.

 

[ldabe]

MR,
It cranks pretty good, it just does not fire up right away, and then it ends up draining the battery.

Ponytug,
I am going to investigate more on the carb, I really think there is the problem.

It will take a long time before I give up. It is that I have not had an engine give me this much trouble with starting, gas odor, run on, etc., it all starts to build up and drain a mans attitude down. Especially when you need to clear snow and haul firewood.

The concept of the PT is a good one at a good price, but if the engine will not start...well then, it is just one Jimungus Paper Weight.

Which brings up something else that has been discussed (this time on the Power Trac side) and that is the FEL.

If the engine does not start and you have to push / pull to load it up on a trailer or truck, it is not going to be easy when the FEL has floated down to the ground. And that does not even take into consideration of if you can remember where that screw is to relieve the hydro pressure.

Keep bringing the ideas and suggestions, I really appreciate you guys on this forum.

I will keep you all informed on the the plight of the "Robin", maybe it will help someone down the road that visits here.

 

[ldabe]

Wow!

Ernemats,
You definitely have one in a million as far as the info put out on this forum. I think you have an "exception to the rule".

I hope it continually gives you great service.

 

[BobRip]

Ponytug,

BobRip, I may try and find a way to keep the hydro oil warm, but if I just do the tank will it also warm what is going through the hoses?

The heat will flow out towards everything, I do not have enough experience using the heater to say it will help. While working on my last problem, I did use a 400 watt heater for about 2 hours, but I also pulled the plugs and heated them with a propane torch. Just the heat did not work. Of course by this point the plugs were coated with gasoline and few engines will start in that situation.
I am sorry that you are having this problem and I do feel that PT should correct it. But as been said, they are not very reponsive.
I wonder if there is something specifically wrong with our PTs. Mine was built in 2000. When was yours?
I have made the starter upgrade and the ignition coil upgrade.

Also have you discussed this with Robin. The guy I talked to just seemed to think it was Power Trac's fault. It was also suggested to me that I change to synthetic oil, which I had already done.
Again this has not been a big issue for me since I have a very warm garage.

Now to a solution. We as a group need to find a way to correct this. We have a lot of very knowledgeable people, probably more and better than on Power Trac's staff. I would like to hear some constructive comments.
My first though (just a thought): Would it help if you first cranked the engine over without the choke? This would give the plugs a chance to warm up a little.

Second thought: Both our engines have a smell of gasoline. I did not see any leaks. Could it be that the float needle valve is leaking, the bowl fills up, and then when you turn the key on the fuel solenoid opens and floods the engine? This looks feasible from the drawing on page 47 of the engine manual. If some engines are OK, then it may be a specific engine problem and not a design flaw.

 

[duane]

I have a PT422 year 2002 vintage. I have also done the coil, plug and starter upgrade. It would not start easily under 40 F without this upgrade! It did okay down to 20 F without heat until earlier this winter. I was having a hard time starting, replaced the spark plugs (they only had 150 -200 hours on them) and it made a world of difference. The choke will flood the engine pretty quickly. The first 5 second crank is full choke. The second crank is with the choke backed off, it then usually starts. If I don't back off on the choke, I get backfire big time and no start. I have the throttle set at 3/4's until it starts, and then back down.

I do run Mobil 1 5W-30 in the engine which does help as well. The Kohlers have a compression release on start, the Robins do not. I think this helps the Kohlers alot.

Under 20 F, I use two magnetic block heaters on the hydraulic tank and a 35,000 btu/hour K1 torpedo heater pointed into the engine tub. This works pretty well. Just have to realize that you can't start the tractor easily on the spur of the moment.

 

[ernemats]

My experience over the past 8 years of pt ownership, for cold weather starting is to put a new set of spark plugs in before cold weather arrives. Even though the plugs look good I have replaced them and it seems to make a world of difference in starting in cold weather.

 

[MossRoad]

On my Kohler in cold weather I start with these settings:
- Full throttle.
- Full choke.
- Start cranking.
- Decrease the choke as I crank and it fires at about half choke.
- Decrease the throttle to about half and let it run there while I hand shovel a few tight spots.
- Listen for the engine to start to sputter and turn the choke all the way off.
- Let it run for a few more minutes to warm the hydraulics.

On the Robins, most of you have gone to different plugs and a few have different starters. Most of the problems seem to be fuel related. And most of those seem to be too rich. So you need to add more air. Maybe try cranking with half throttle, no choke and increase choke as you crank.

Has anyone tried just a small 1/2 second shot of starting fluid and then cranking with no throttle and no choke? It should pop instantly then die. That would tell you if it had spark at least. Then give it only half throttle and experiment with the choke settings.

I have a pull start 8.5HP Briggs that just will not start in warm weather. I give it just a squirt, no more, of startig fluid and off it goes every time. I also nad a 76 GMC with a 454 that needed it when the temps got below -10F. If used properly and before the plugs get coated with gas, it usually works.

I know starting fluid can damage an engine if use in excess, so take it easy. If one squirt doesn't do it, more probably own't help. But it is a good tool to get you going if used properly and no one has mentioned its use yet.

 

[ldabe]

Just have time for a quick comment.

This is why this site is so great with a bunch of great guys (don't know if there are girls) that are willing to let the info fly!

I do not have the time/opportunity at the moment to try some of the things mentioned above...but let me assure you that I will as soon as possible.

With 1 full time job and two businesses time is in great demand.
But I am looking forward to 'plucking and primping' the "Robin's" wings to see if I can get her to start 'flapping'.

Thanks again guys for all the help you provide on this site...and I hope anyone else with a "rant and a wrench" will feel free to pipe in.

 

[ldabe]

Whoops!
BobRip,
Mine is a 2003 (with two cylinders for the articulating) and approx 315 hours on it.
I replaced the sparkplugs (type? forget) before winter, and in the summer I also had to replace the ignition coils (don't know if they were an "upgrade" part or just a replacement).
I have not made a starter change or upgrade (as far as I know it is the original, I am the 2nd owner).

 

[toy]

Just have time for a quick comment.

This is why this site is so great with a bunch of great guys (don't know if there are girls) that are willing to let the info fly!

I do not have the time/opportunity at the moment to try some of the things mentioned above...but let me assure you that I will as soon as possible.

With 1 full time job and two businesses time is in great demand.
But I am looking forward to 'plucking and primping' the "Robin's" wings to see if I can get her to start 'flapping'.

Thanks again guys for all the help you provide on this site...and I hope anyone else with a "rant and a wrench" will feel free to pipe in.

I have an old 3 1/2 hp lawn mower motor that hadn't been started for around ten years. I put a new spark plug in it and fresh gas in the tank pulled to start it and it wouldn't start , squirted a squirt of wd40 in the carb pulled the starter and it fired right up. I have did that on other engines with the same results but I wouldn't guarentee it for others. That is just what I do.

 

[Trackks9]

Ernemat's
Your posting is encouraging, I have 640 hr's on my p.t. 418 no problem's
on the robin's engine so far.

 

[KMA]

Unfortunately, I think the Robin engine (as delivered in the PT) doesn't like cold weather starting... Mine was purchased in 2006. The last two winters, I've had to use an engine block heater on the oil pan to have any chance of getting it started when the temp was around freezing or below. I plug it in and come back in an hour or so, and it will start reluctantly.

 

[scarg]

The PT429 will start at 5-10 below zero is about 3 seconds. Even if it has been sitting for weeks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Digital fuel injection does wonders.

The JD 3120 also starts great. I think the problem is that Robin (oops i mean PT) took a motor that was designed for a power generator sitting on level ground in Tazewell, VA at 45 degrees F and stuck it into a tractor. The PT concept is great- Imagine if a company that had some design knowledge, actually tested new designs fully before selling them as products and got some customer oriented people all on the same bus. The PT "could" be a great machine but all it really is is a bunch of guys that got together and started with a great idea and it all went downhill from there.

Just my thoughts.

Owning a PT is like being in an abusive relationship with the owner taking the position of the person being abused. After a while you begin to think you deserve to get beaten and abused.

My advise to anyone considering a PT - Don't do it unless you like machines that breakdown in every possible way and you love to spend hundreds of hours working on a machine that is a very simple mechanism.

PT takes no ownership for the product once you wire the money to them.

Terry E. is great - He should hire a talented designer, Welder, Assembler and an IT person and a few customer service people who can move faster than a snail and put PT out of business (unless he owns PT in that case i take it all back)

In my own opinion I think that PT sucks. Let's not all shine s**t. Let's just all accept the PT for what it is and move on. If you have a 30' long paved driveway to plow and want to mow on a flat surface then the PT is for you.

Join me in the John Deere forum. There is a whole other word out there - and remember - their is hope. The serenity prayer is handy to recite every morning before breakfast daily - somewhere about the 2nd year of ownership of a PT.

Take a peak at the definition of insanity sometime and compare it to your mind and actions as they are related to owning a PT.

How about a new forum called PT Anonymous?

Steve

 

[SpringHollow]

Hi Steve,

I am sorry you have had a bad experience and there are things about the PT and company that i do not like. Having said that, I have owned Allis Chalmers, JD 770, Ford/New Holland 1520 and 2120 4WD CUTs. While I liked them (particularly the New Hollands), I would never go back. Particularly because i do not have a flat surface to mow. I bought a heavily used PT and have annoying problems with it. But it is amazing what the tractor can do. The low ground impact alone means i get to use my tractor for more than just plowing driveways and unloading the occasional delivery truck. In 1 year, i put more hours on the PT than the last 10 years worth of use of a CUT (and i have not even started to do major mowing of the steep slopes with it yet).

They are not for everyone. But they can be a good match for some. It would be unfair to potential buyers for them not to have a complete picture. If you read these forums, we focus mainly on the problems we are having, not the wonderful things about the PT. So, I do not believe this forum is a love fest for PTs. I read all of the negative posts before buying my PT sight unseen. It was clear, even with their faults, that these tractors would best suit my needs. My PT has exceeded my expectations in spite of the problems i have had. I have no qualms recomending it to others as long as they go into it with all of the knowledge available to them here.

Ken

 

[MossRoad]

The PT429 will start at 5-10 below zero is about 3 seconds. Even if it has been sitting for weeks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Digital fuel injection does wonders.

The JD 3120 also starts great. I think the problem is that Robin (oops i mean PT) took a motor that was designed for a power generator sitting on level ground in Tazewell, VA at 45 degrees F and stuck it into a tractor. The PT concept is great- Imagine if a company that had some design knowledge, actually tested new designs fully before selling them as products and got some customer oriented people all on the same bus. The PT "could" be a great machine but all it really is is a bunch of guys that got together and started with a great idea and it all went downhill from there.

Just my thoughts.

Owning a PT is like being in an abusive relationship with the owner taking the position of the person being abused. After a while you begin to think you deserve to get beaten and abused.

My advise to anyone considering a PT - Don't do it unless you like machines that breakdown in every possible way and you love to spend hundreds of hours working on a machine that is a very simple mechanism.

PT takes no ownership for the product once you wire the money to them.

Terry E. is great - He should hire a talented designer, Welder, Assembler and an IT person and a few customer service people who can move faster than a snail and put PT out of business (unless he owns PT in that case i take it all back)

In my own opinion I think that PT sucks. Let's not all shine s**t. Let's just all accept the PT for what it is and move on. If you have a 30' long paved driveway to plow and want to mow on a flat surface then the PT is for you.

Join me in the John Deere forum. There is a whole other word out there - and remember - their is hope. The serenity prayer is handy to recite every morning before breakfast daily - somewhere about the 2nd year of ownership of a PT.

Take a peak at the definition of insanity sometime and compare it to your mind and actions as they are related to owning a PT.

How about a new forum called PT Anonymous?

Steve

Your JD 3120 weighs more than twice as much and costs almost three times more than a PT422. I would hope that it would do more of the work you need to do. You cannot load it into a pickup truck and take it with you, you need a trailer. You cannot fit it through a 4' gate and you cannot fit it into a yard barn for storage. You cannot muck out stalls with it and you cannot mow into a corner with it, nor mow under overhanging ornamentals. You cannot move a pile of mulch from one place to another faster than the PT. The list of what each machine can do that the other cannot goes on and on. The two machines are not comparable for an infinite number of reasons.

How old was your PT422 before you gutted it? How long did you own it? Did you research it thoroughly before you bought it? Before you plunked down your hard earned dollars were you sure it would do every thing that you needed it to do? Yes, it is a bad problem that the thing won't start in cold weather. I agree that PT should have done something about that. But the bottom line is the machine will do what it is advertised as being able to do, with the exception of the cold starting issue.

My PT425 is 6 years old, has run well and continues to serve my needs. I spent a year researching, talked to several owners, watched a professional landscaper operate it, and sat on it before I purchased. It works as advertised. If maintained properly, they will last for years. In the long run, they will also be cheaper to repair if you do the work yourself.

Hundreds of hours in repairs? After every 8 hours of use, I spend about a half an hour maintaining my machine. Clean, inspect, note any problem areas, and lube. With my 300+ hours over 6 years that ads up to about 20 hours, or about 3.5 hours per year. Anything other than that is usually self induced problems, like flat tire, snagged hose, abuse of the machine, etc...

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with your PT422. But gutting it out and shoehorning a different motor into it, spending hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars, then walking away from it and spending another $17,000.00+ for a completely different machine??

 

[J_J]

Hi Steve,

I am sorry you have had a bad experience and there are things about the PT and company that i do not like. Having said that, I have owned Allis Chalmers, JD 770, Ford/New Holland 1520 and 2120 FWD Cuts. While I liked them (particularly the New Hollands), I would never go back. Particularly because i do not have a flat surface to mow. I bought a heavily used PT and have annoying problems with it. But it is amazing what the tractor can do. The low ground impact alone means i get to use my tractor for more than just plowing driveways and unloading the occasional delivery truck. In 1 year, i put more hours on the PT than the last 10 years worth of use of a CUT (and i have not even started to do major mowing of the steep slopes with it yet).

They are not for everyone. But they can be a good match for some. It would be unfair to potential buyers for them not to have a complete picture. If you read these forums, we focus mainly on the problems we are having, not the wonderful things about the PT. So, I do not believe this forum is a love fest for PT's. I read all of the negative posts before buying my PT sight unseen. It was clear, even with their faults, that these tractors would best suit my needs. My PT has exceeded my expectations in spite of the problems i have had. I have no qualms recommending it to others as long as they go into it with all of the knowledge available to them here.

Ken

For those PT owners that have had no problems, you are lucky. Maybe Terry can fix all your problems by telephone, maybe not. But where in the he** are the complete electrical and hydraulic schematics for each version of PT's. They must know that we are not totally ignorant. We will get the job done minus the technical descriptions and illustrations. Some of us like to do our own work and figure things out. If I had purchased a new PT and it gave me the problems that some of you have or had, I would be really pis*ed. I purchased my 1445 used with a lot of implements, and accepted the risk. I have done fairly well taking care of the machine. I do have one screw up that I will admit to . PT sent me the wrong part, the roll over assembly, and 2 in pin. I installed the unit and welded it together, and thought I did pretty good, That was until I tried to tilt the bucket and figured something was wrong. I then compared the old unit to the new unit and noticed a difference which would not allow the bucket to tilt straight down. I have had to compensate for this, but it is usable. Some of you love your PT's, but just wait until it starts giving you persistent troubles, and you will love it less.

With good technical manuals, we could work on our machines at night, or weekends, or holidays. We shouldn't have to call Terry.

 

[ponytug]

Dear Steve,

I was really sorry to read about the implosion of your 429; it sounded like a great machine and I feel badly that you didn't get years of bragging rights out of it.

Would I put on a PTO interconnect, as JJ suggests? Yes!

I fully agree with Ken's comments.

I agree PT's post sales support could use some improvement. Terry is great, but he is part of a larger corporation. I agree it ought to be supplied with schematics, and I agree the fit and finish is not up to ______ brand tractors. I start companies for a living. Do I have a laundry list of items that would help PT compete, and be more successful? You betcha! Would I love to help them? You better believe it, but I'm not holding my breath; I have learned over the years that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Fortunately, PTs are great, truly great, at some tasks. You have demonstrated that you can get by with something other than a PT, which is great! Go for it & more power to you!

That said, you would join the farmer fatality lists in a couple of minutes using a non-PT/non-Aebi on my property.

Would I try to use a PT to plow with? No.
Would I use it to hay with? Probably not, but I know of others who do it successfully.
Would I use a PT on slopes? You bet your life I would.
Functionally is it great at what it does? Yes.


There are compromises in most things in life. It is just the way it is.

All the best,

Peter

Hi Steve,

I am sorry you have had a bad experience and there are things about the PT and company that i do not like. Having said that, I have owned Allis Chalmers, JD 770, Ford/New Holland 1520 and 2120 4WD CUTs. While I liked them (particularly the New Hollands), I would never go back. Particularly because i do not have a flat surface to mow. I bought a heavily used PT and have annoying problems with it. But it is amazing what the tractor can do. The low ground impact alone means i get to use my tractor for more than just plowing driveways and unloading the occasional delivery truck. In 1 year, i put more hours on the PT than the last 10 years worth of use of a CUT (and i have not even started to do major mowing of the steep slopes with it yet).

They are not for everyone. But they can be a good match for some. It would be unfair to potential buyers for them not to have a complete picture. If you read these forums, we focus mainly on the problems we are having, not the wonderful things about the PT. So, I do not believe this forum is a love fest for PTs. I read all of the negative posts before buying my PT sight unseen. It was clear, even with their faults, that these tractors would best suit my needs. My PT has exceeded my expectations in spite of the problems i have had. I have no qualms recomending it to others as long as they go into it with all of the knowledge available to them here.

Ken

 

[Wayne County Hose]

Electrical and hydraulic schematics for a machine of this size are very easy to write. If I had one in front of me, I could probably write both in a day. And that would be professional looking, I could hand write them in about an hour each. There is no excuse for not having a decent service manual. But, you would be surprised at some of the trash I have seen from major manufacturers. Sometimes, I would be better off without the manual as it only made me more confused.

From the outside looking in, it looks like Power Trac does have some issues. But, there is no way I will pay double the price just to have green paint on a tractor that sinks to the axles in places that a Power Trac will hardly leave a tire track.

Probably more because of my ability to repair things, I would have no problem buying one of these without even seeing one in person. No machine or company is perfect. If you think that the green machines are without their serious faults, I'll introduce you to some people around here.

Power Trac obviously doesn't turn out a half million machines a year. If they did, they could afford to have all the bells and whistles of the big boys. But, with the bells and whistles also come other issues. When you call the green guys for help, do you get a guy like Terry? No, you get a kid that just went thru the factory training course. He looks at the book and reads from it. I know this as I worked for a major equipment manufacturer and experienced it in person. When that kid is good enough (if ever) he is moved somewhere else.

Is the Robin engine Power Trac's fault? No. You have to applaud them for giving another option besides Briggs & Scrapiron. The Robin engine has a great reputation and someday will probably rival Honda in the small engine market. I've got a 10 horse Robin on my generator. 0 degrees and it starts in 2 pulls, 3 at the most. Only issue is the low oil cut-off will kill the engine even though it's full of oil. I disconnected it and it hasn't stalled since.

Enough of me. Sorry for hijacking the thread.

 

[MossRoad]

There is not much to the machine. The simplicity of it is beautiful.

1 engine.
1 variable volume pump.
1 two section pto pump.
4 wheel motors.
1 steering valve.
A ton of hoses.
A few hydraulic cylinders.
A couple of electic parts like cooling fan, and solenoids.
Some swivel joints.

For the 400 series, if you can work on lawn mower engines and repair a log splitter, you have the basic skill set to maintain and repair the unit.

The larger units with the diesels require considerably more knowledge.

I have a basic diagram of the hydraulic layout, but I could just as easily trace it out myself. I also purchased a few Kohler manuals for my specific engine at a local small engine shop.

It is no worse and usually easier than working on a used car.

 

[Marks481]

I've got a 10 horse Robin on my generator. 0 degrees and it starts in 2 pulls, 3 at the most.

Probably what makes the PT hard to start is that when you crank it in cold weather, you are also spinning a positive displacement pump with very cold oil in it, so it doesn't spin fast enough.

A block heater on the hydraulic tank might solve this problem, or a more powerful starter motor and a battery with a little more capacity. I have noticed that it doesn't take too much cranking before my battery dies.

Don't do it unless you like machines that breakdown in every possible way and you love to spend hundreds of hours working on a machine that is a very simple mechanism.

The simplicity of the PT400 series is such that even a complete engine replacement (with a 22 or 25 Hp Robin) would only take about 6-10 hours of work, max. Routine maintenance usually takes 15-30 minutes. Not really sure where you are spending all your time?

Unless you try to shoehorn a water cooled 29 Hp under the hood; I can see that taking hundreds of hours. I understand Steve being upset once at the end of all of that labor he found out that applying 29 Hp worth of torque to the PTO pump with it deadheaded will either shear a lovejoy coupling with the PTO pump or overtorque and damage the PTO pump (it sounded like the latter occurred, but no post-mortum yet).

I have done that before with no damage with only 22 Hp... like an idiot, I didn't hook up the hoses to my mower.. I was wondering why the grass wasn't looking any shorter and my engine sounded so bogged down after I took a complete pass!