RPM vs Longevity

   / RPM vs Longevity #31  
The old Detroits turn about 2100 just like the Cummins. They are 2 cycle so they fire twice as much plus the supercharger screams. I ran an old 318 for a while and it sure was nice when I got a Cummins !!
 
   / RPM vs Longevity #32  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( </font><font color="blueclass=small">( I've worked for the big 3 in the diesel engine business )</font>

Since you are involved in the design processes of engines (I've not) may I ask you that what type of stress is the most important stress, most important determining factor for the life span of the engines? Without thinking much, I'm assumin.g time-dependent thermal stresses, i.e. termal cycles as called in the public, will play the major role in the engine life. Right?

But I don't see the use of appropriate materials that will resist thermal stresses much in engine components like pistons, cranks, etc. For ex., as far as I remember, Nickel, a relatively expansive material, isn't more than 2-3% in some engine components like the crank which are under heavy thermal cycle stresses. Why is this so? I think, in the engine designs, the lower cost criteria comes first before the longer life criteria? Am I missing anything here? Is Nickel percentage low because its relatively higher ductility that won't be so good against the thermal cycles? Or, is it low just to reduce the cost of engines? )</font>

I'll try to answer this - I've given this presentation probably a hundred times and I think it's easier said than written out.

When designing an engine we are concerned about three things, cylinder temperature, cylinder pressure, and bearing load. To a certain degree temperature and pressure are related, bearing loads we can design for. Using the best design tools we have, and a lot of experience we manipulate injection pressure, nozzle patterns, injection timing, and piston design to give us an engine that is the best compromise between life, efficiency, and performance. We try to keep the cylinder temperature and pressure at the point of best flame front in the cylinder without causing the piston (or other components) to self destruct. It's a fine dance figured out by guys with really thick glasses and slide rule calculators on their belts.

Bearing loads are easy to figure out in comparison because we know the forces and the square inches of mating surface we have to work with and the wear rates of metals. Knowing that we design accordingly.

As far as use of appropriate materials, trust me, we try all kinds of things to increase engine performance and life. In the on-highway truck world fuel efficiency is measured down to the thousandth's of lbs fuel used per BHP. Yup, that's right, 3 decimal places. And orders for thousands of engines are based on those numbers combined with life to overhaul. Thermal cycling in engines isn't as big a deal as it used to be.

Most of the thermal problems in the past were coolant and oil leaks caused by the engine expansion and contraction and gasket failure. By switching to O rings and different sealing technology I think we are down to something like 3 gaskets in the engine now, and we don't have leaks.

I'm not a metalurgist, so I can't say why we don't use nickel in the engines, but my guess is that a forged and machined crank and connecting rod are the strongest, most cost effective components we can get for the job they have to do. Sure there is always a tradeoff between cost and performance, same reason I drive a Blazer and not a Hummer - do I want a Hummer, sure it'd tow like a bat out of hell, can I afford it and the additional gas cost? No. Actually in one instance we used one the best bearing technologies available (sputtered bearings-sorry I don't want to describe the process) and they caused more problems than a standard tin overlay bearing we had used for years.

Todays engines are worlds better than the ones I started with back in the mid 80's. They live longer and have much better performance.
 
   / RPM vs Longevity #33  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Thermal cycling in engines isn't as big a deal as it used to be.
.
Most of the thermal problems in the past were coolant and oil leaks caused by the engine expansion and contraction and gasket failure.
.
I'm not a metalurgist, so I can't say why we don't use nickel in the engines, )</font>

I'm not sure if you really understood my question. My question was about thermal fatique stresses in the engine which I assumed the most important stress for an engine operating at 3000 RPM (50 Hz like electricity) between 20-30 C (60-70F) room temperatures and 1500-2500 C (3500-4500F) flame temperatures.

At such a high frequency (50Hz) operation in between such a large temperature differences (about 4000F), thermal fatique stresses must be really important even though there isn't any mass leakage in the engine. Maybe, you are leaving this part of whole work to another design department, especially to metalurgy dept. and they do analysis when they select the engine body and component materials.

Anyway, I was trying to remind people here of that one of most important problem with high RPM (for same engine) was the thermal fatique stresses.
 
   / RPM vs Longevity #34  
As always, lots of info to process in this thread, and more questions... I get the idea that for long service life, I should be operating my Kubota B8200 (three cylinder, 20 HP) at around 3/4 of full power RPMs, which would mean using around 1950 RPM, if the max. engine speed is rated at 2600 RPM. I suppose I do that, for most things, because the engine just seems "happy" at that speed. Does this make any sense? Of course, I want the tractor to last as long as possible, and I try to take care of it (storage in a barn, etc.)

Since I don't get over 50 hours use a year, I am changing the oil/filter once a year, using Kubota products, though I may switch to synthetic oil, for easier cold weather starting.
 
   / RPM vs Longevity #35  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( the engine just seems "happy" at that speed (1950 RPM, i.e. 3/4 of max. 2600 RPM.) Does this make any sense? Of course, I want the tractor to last as long as possible. )</font>

This "happiness" you feel is due to efficient burning of the fuel in the cylinders and less vibrations in moving components. Actually, in a design process, "a point" state is designed and "a range" is added around this "design point" which can also be called "rated state" to cover the safer operation area. So, I guess "design/rate point/state" may be at 1950 RPM. This is a point where some important quantities like the efficiency is the best, optimum (without considering economical parameters.)

I can recommend you new and especially old tractor users some simple sets of tests to find your "best/optimum" operating RPM. One of them can be measuring carbonmonoxide CO amount in the exhaust gas. Measure it at several RPM values and draw a simple graph. Measure also noise levels your tractor produce at some different RPM values. Draw another graph using these noise levels which tell something about the vibration history of your tractor. Using these two graphs (CO and Noise levels at different RPMs), you can determine "best RPM" for your tractor you want it to last long.

As for thermal fatique; you'll not feel "unhappiness" of your tractor due to thermal fatique stresses. They are the stresses felt later, like heart attack - you don't feel anything in the tractor when it's under big thermal fatique stresses, but, it may suddenly cause some components get broken. High RPMs is one of the reasons of thermal fatique and damage.
 
   / RPM vs Longevity #36  
Why not just look at the manufactures torque and horsepower curves. Lot simpler.

Those high combustion temps and thermal cycling. Is this because the steel changes back and forth between austenistic and martinistic.

Sure hope the aluminum heads and pistons on some vehicles don't turn into a silver coloured crankcase puddle.

Egon
 
   / RPM vs Longevity #37  
Would not metal to metal contact on moving parts be the greatest wear factor??

Egon
 
   / RPM vs Longevity #38  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Why not just look at the manufactures torque and horsepower curves. Lot simpler. )</font>
You are correct. But I supposed most of tractor users don't have that data and also, older tractors don't have anymore the same curves as they left the factory.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Those high combustion temps and thermal cycling. Is this because the steel changes back and forth between austenistic and martinistic.)</font>
Color or phase change may not necessarily have to occur at tractors with heavy thermal fatique stresses. But I can't comment on chemistry or metallurgy of engine materials. Are the steel changing between austenitic and martenistic forms in the engines?

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Sure hope the aluminum heads and pistons on some vehicles don't turn into a silver coloured crankcase puddle.
)</font>

Lightness and heat transfer capability of Aluminum are main reasons why it's used in some engines and this is well known. But, use of such a ductile material like aluminum in the engines isn't causing some problems fast contraction & expansions which may block some tolerances between components? I assume that aluminum alloy used in engines has some elements which reduce overall ductility of alloy.

What I'm curious here is ductility is good for thermal fatique stress or not? That's why I asked Dave who is involved in engine designs - but he said he's not involved in metalurgic part of the work.

Ps: yes, metal-to-metal contact is the cause of most wear. Okay, wear is also important at high RPMs problems, but I also reminded thermal fatique problem (at high RPM operation) that can be felt later in time.
 
   / RPM vs Longevity #39  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( This "happiness" you feel is due to efficient burning of the fuel in the cylinders and less vibrations in moving components. Actually, in a design process, "a point" state is designed and "a range" is added around this "design point" which can also be called "rated state" to cover the safer operation area )</font>

Hmm....

My tach has a green span in it. I've never paid MUCH attention to it, but let's presume it's about a 500 rpm wide green band at approximately 2300 rpm.

Does that green band infer the engines (Perkins) peak efficiency area or other? Could it be this design point?

I've seen a <font color="red">redline</font> on a tach before, but can't say I've ever noticed a <font color="green">green band</font>

Richard
 
   / RPM vs Longevity #40  
One would think that the PTO RPM would be at the peak of the torque curve, but that is not always the case. An example of less than perfect engineering and creating a new model of tractor out of existing engines, trannys, etc without properly adjusting the ratios, etc.
 

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