running water lines

[dan_d]

Up until now we've been lugging hoses back and forth every few days (even in winter!) to water our 20+ horses... But this year we're finally going to throw some money at the problem and install automatic waterers to a few of the paddocks Unfortunately for me there isn't an awful lot of topsoil in some spots that I will be running line, and i'm worried that they might not be deep enough to get below the frost line and may freeze over the winter time, which of course would be really *really* bad! I was just wondering if there's a good way to insulate the pipes in the shallow spots just as an extra measure of safety, even tho i think (i hope!) that the horses will be drinking enough to keep the water flowing well enough to not freeze. I thought of that black foam pipe insulation, but seems to be that would just get squashed under the weight of topsoil and lose it's insulation value...


Thanks for any suggestions!
Dan

 

[Kays Supply]

Something to keep in mind. If you use PEX for your line, it can freeze without hurting it. It will take someone up there to give you ideas on insulation that can be buried. Around here the frost line is only 15".
If you Google "underground pipe insulation" there are several good sites. A point that was brought up , that if your pipe is frozen in the ground and the ground shifts, insulation will help keep it from being broken, again an issue that PEX doesn't have.

 

[whistlepig]

Up until now we've been lugging hoses back and forth every few days (even in winter!) to water our 20+ horses... But this year we're finally going to throw some money at the problem and install automatic waterers to a few of the paddocks Unfortunately for me there isn't an awful lot of topsoil in some spots that I will be running line, and i'm worried that they might not be deep enough to get below the frost line and may freeze over the winter time, which of course would be really *really* bad! I was just wondering if there's a good way to insulate the pipes in the shallow spots just as an extra measure of safety, even tho i think (i hope!) that the horses will be drinking enough to keep the water flowing well enough to not freeze. I thought of that black foam pipe insulation, but seems to be that would just get squashed under the weight of topsoil and lose it's insulation value...


Thanks for any suggestions!
Dan

Just curious. What kind of automatic waterers are you installing?

 

[bota7800]

When we built our barn in Colorado we used PEX buried 4' (Nelson waterers and an Iowa hydrant).

It was a major budget item but I was pleased with the install.

You cannot rely on the horses usage to keep the lines unfrozen. You either need insulation and heat (as with Nelson) or drain below frostline (like BarBarA)

 

[whistlepig]

When we built our barn in Colorado we used PEX buried 4' (Nelson waterers and an Iowa hydrant).

It was a major budget item but I was pleased with the install.

You cannot rely on the horses usage to keep the lines unfrozen. You either need insulation and heat (as with Nelson) or drain below frostline (like BarBarA)

I would agree on the Nelson waterers. Pretty expensive and complicated for us to install and worth every bit of it.

 

[bota7800]

I would agree on the Nelson waterers. Pretty expensive and complicated for us to install and worth every bit of it.

A couple access plates in the side would simplify things immensely when working on the valves or wiring (while still keeping it horseproof, of course)

 

[whistlepig]

A couple access plates in the side would simplify things immensely when working on the valves or wiring (while still keeping it horseproof, of course)

I agree. Working on them from the top side with frozen fingers and not dropping something down in the ten foot pit can be a challenge. Ours has been relatively maintenance free. The heater element burned out after it's fourth year. That's the only maintenance I have done on it. We have had several spells of wind chill 30 degrees below. It amazes me how these things won't freeze up.

 

[Egon]

Heat Tape!:thumbsup:

 

[PILOON]

I ran 300 ft from a lake to a chalet and never was able to dig deeper than 12 inches at some places.
Freeze is rated at 4 ft around here.
What I did is used 1 inch poly B (blue stuff) and inserted it in the 4 inch corrugated drainage pipe, burying as deep (up to 4 ft) as I could.
Backfilled with sand flush to top of the black corrugated and laid 2" rigid foam insulation cut in 16" strips over all the shallower locations and then topped with sand to grade with additional heaps over the shallow areas.

My theory was the pipe being inside of the 4 in drainage (not holed type), that the heat from lower debths would migrate to the shallower areas and the foam would aid in preventing frost wherever it was shallow.
Well, it worked for about 15 years until some erosion washed out some sand filled areas.
We fixed that by heaping 4-6 ins of straw over shallow spots as additional insulation.

Another idea is that running water will not freeze!
So if you are in a position to always have a steady flow (more than a mere trickle, but not full blast) you could solve the problem that way.

Also as suggested by EGON, if the distance is not too great, heat tapes is also good.
Again I like to encase in drainage pipe, even with tapes, as to simplify maintainance as well as to obtain that 'heat equalization' effect.
And to add air is as well an insulator.
Sand is also a better backfill as it drains water away and dry sand will prevent, or at least lessen ice formation.

Good luck!

 

[Egon]

Again I like to encase in drainage pipe

That is a very good practice for maintenance purposes. One could even blow hot air through if the lines freeze.:thumbsup:

 

[rd_macgregor]

We have a heated waterer in the barn with the supply line buried (about) 4 ft.

In the pastures, I put a "Y" in the drain tiles from some springs and tapped the flow into water tanks, then back out into the tile. I has worked pretty well except when the drain/overflow line gets plugged with algae or leaves. The constant flow keeps the tanks from freezing up in all but the very coldest weather. Of course, this only works where you have springs and enough contour/slope...I have an excess of both.
BOB

 

[forgeblast]

I like the black pipe idea, what about getting that cheap foam insulation with the slit that goes around copper pipe and putting that around the pex and then putting that into the black pipe. we just burried water lines that are for summer only. I us my aircompressor to blow the lines out in the fall. I would think some are deep enough but i didnt want to have to dig them up if i was wrong.

 

[dan_d]

*aaak!* i just typed a nice long reply and it got lost oh well, here we go again...

holy crap that's a lot of info in a short amount of time!

Kays Supply, you're right i totally forgot to google for some reason :ashamed: Must have been asleep at the wheel yesterday...

Thanks Piloon for your pipe-within-a pipe idea, and forgeblast for the insulating the inner pipe idea... in fact, google found me this: Insulated underground pipe which i guess they use for those outdoor wood furnaces. I'll ask around here if anyone sells the pre-fab stuff, may not cost much more than DIY

my current plan is to use the existing 50gal tub + floating heater with a float valve and a heated hose, connected to an insulated/heated dry hydrant. The $20 float valve is a bit cheaper than the $500 Nelson waterer, so i'll take a chance on it first

the 3 tubs I an running water to will require at least 600ft of line so any underground electrical solutions would be prohibitive. The frost line in south-central ontario is ~3ft, but i'll be lucky to get 2ft in some spots with all the rock in there... hence why i want to make sure i get it right the first time; the last thing i need to be doing is figuring out where along 600 ft the line is frozen, and having to drag hoses out every day until it's thawed!

Thanks to everyone for the tips! I'll be sure to update the thread in the spring and let you know how it turned out

Dan

 

[Obed]

[Ithe 3 tubs I an running water to will require at least 600ft of line so any underground electrical solutions would be prohibitive. The frost line in south-central ontario is ~3ft, but i'll be lucky to get 2ft in some spots with all the rock in there... hence why i want to make sure i get it right the first time; the last thing i need to be doing is figuring out where along 600 ft the line is frozen, and having to drag hoses out every day until it's thawed!

Dan,
You might consider putting in some freeze protected spigots in that 600 ft of pipe. If the pipe freezes or breaks, opening the spigots to see where the water comes out will help to locate the section of pipe that is frozen or busted.
Good luck.
Obed

 

[204saskman]

Well your really not to far from me, i know for a fact that my water lines are burried at 8' or better in some places. I had water problems 2 years ago but this year i didnt have one problem this year at all(our winter got to -40 fairly often). I installed some heat tape to the bottom of mine and left it on all winter and not 1 issue. I also installed a new watering bowl(automatic waterer) made by SPI. It is an awsome waterer for our horses and we havent had an issue. For 400 bucks it was a well invested option. I wouldnt cheap out IMO, nothing worse then trying to get them unfroze at -40.

 

[crusty 1]

check out the web sites for out door wood boilers,they sell very good insulated pipe to run water lines through.Central boiler is the stove I have and they sell the stuff,but a bit priceyDave

 

[dieselscout80]

Has anyone try these? Bar Bar A Home Page

I'm starting to look for auto waters.

 

[204saskman]

Here is the one i got

SPI Industries Inc. Livestock Waterers Electrical Model VS15E

The reason i went with a electric one is cause we used to have those no power ones and had issues with it. You have to train the animals to use them, Some animals spook easy and i know my horses would sooner drink out of the slough then out of the old water bowl. For 400 bucks and it comes with the heater and heat tape, worth every penny.

 

[EddieWalker]

Unfortunately for me there isn't an awful lot of topsoil in some spots that I will be running line, \

Dan,

What is under the topsoil? What are you planning to use to dig the trench? How far does the trench need to be and how deep?

Since you are wanting to do this right and not have to mess with it again in the future, I would NOT rely on anything to heat or insulate the hose. Every one of those ideas has as many negatives to them as they might have positives. Fixing one problem by creating another isn't a solution that I'd be wanting.

There is something out there that will dig the trench deep enough. Ususally it's more money, and that might become an issue for you, but if it does the job and you never have to go back and redo it, replace it or maintain it, them maybe a little more money isn't such a bad idea considering the long term gains that you will receive.

Go to the rental yards and ask what they have to get the job done.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[dan_d]

Under the topsoil is essentially bedrock... giant slabs of rock (mostly shale, but other stuff too) generally 10+ft across. I suspect the only way to get deep enough would be to blast, since the equipment required to dig that rock up would be pretty significant, not to mention time-consuming.
There are 3 separate runs of 100, 150 and 250ft, which should be at least 3ft down to keep from freezing
I had the guy out this week to dig the trenches, i'd say about 1/2 of my runs will require insulation since the bucket hit solid rock at 2.5ft or less, some spots he barely got a foot down! I'm going with the pipe insualtion inside the drainage tube idea, but i'm trying to figure out what else i could add for the sections that are exceptionally shallow.

Thanks to everyone for the links to other products, I'll be bookmarking them for sure Nice to see a Canadian product in the lineup, certainly worth a look since UPS absolutely shafts me if i order anything from the US!

I found this one one of those sites, which looks likea pretty decent insulator, not sure on the price tho..
SPI Agricultural Livestock Waterers Earth Tube


Cheers,
Dan