Rural Living??

[RobertN]

Dog packs caused more harm to my Grampa's Chicken ranch than any predator did. They would kill chickens, or sheep that he always had, and leave them. Once they were dead they abandoned them, and chased the next. They did not eat, they just killed.

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

 

[RichZ]

Robert, you're right! If people did not let their dogs run free, or even totally abandon them, alot of the ranch deaths blamed on wolves, coyotes and foxes wouldn't happen. The predators get the blame because they have bad PR, but its the dogs who are often to blame. I have two rather large (165 pounds each) dogs, who I never allow off their leases even on my own property. They're well trained, but if they see a criter, and take off in hot pursuit, they'll be too caught up to even listen to me. Besides, my dogs are part of the family, they live in the house (they think they run it, and in some ways they do), and I don't want them getting in any trouble.

 

[M. Sullivan]

Just have to chime in on an aspect I always see in these type of discussions. I cut the following from somewhere in the guts of the string:

---I believe the natural plan has a lot to offer, and is nearly impossible to experience, what with all the "improvements" man has already made to the planet---

Always amazes me how the enviro-****'s so easily label humans and their actions as not part of the natural scheme of things. Intruders into a grand plan they were not supposed to be part of. BS. Bottom line all the actions are part of the plan, or as I prefer balance that someone far more knowledgable has designed. Don't want to start a free-will vs. determinism debate....but feel strongly that certain macro-level occurances (humans, for one) are determined. Just as the dinosaurs, humans and their actions will be a thin layer of debris in the soil in a million years. What counts is your actions and what is in your heart while your here.

Personally, anything that affects the health, safety and welfare of my family will not be well received. I do and have done much for the environment and its residents, but will not accept much risk when it gets close to home. If the same risks materially affected my family's financial well-being, then ditto. Believe this is cowboy docs slant as well.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: Rural Living?? coyote irony

Hi CowboyDoc,

Thanks for the insights into the "true cowboy" riding-habits( and the "free" land use).

I guess I've seen too-many westerns, ... always wondered what-the-hey those guys are doing riding fast in rough rock-strewn country, chasing badguys or whatever. From my trail riding experience, I know that neither I nor my horse want any part of tearing-through thick-or-scary stuff. The very-real risk of injury is all too-great, and if you're gonna GET injured, a thousand miles from nowhere is the last place you want it to happen.
I always believed cowboys thought more of their horses than that, ...thanks for reassuring me.(maybe it's movie-directors, determined to make a scene "exciting", that were behind those images)

Re. land-use ; I'm sure there is a lot more to that issue, also, than the average person without actual experience-with-it knows.

Now, about those coyotes. For the past couple of years, we have had deer that "lived-in" our yard. (I don't mean somewhere on the 20 acres, I mean right in the area around our dwelling. Most recently there were 2 does and the yearling offspring of one of them(1 buck/1 doe). I have seen as many as 8 deer at one time in our "yard", perhaps 6 or 7 years ago.

This number has steadily declined, and the yearling buck and the "auntie" doe have not been here for some months. I suspected that the buck had become of age to go on-his-own (or been run-off by the perhaps pregnant-again mother), and that the "auntie" had perhaps sought a place-of-privacy to raise some fawns of her own. (speaking of fawns, we have some pix of a newborn that was "parked" right near our steps, in the needed-mowing grass)

For the past few weeks, the only "resident" we've had was the yearling doe, who'd become so used-to-us that she hardly looked-up when we would walk by, maybe 20-30 feet away. (again, I assumed that "mom" had sought privacy to have this-years fawns)

Now to the "irony"; at just about the same time I was typing my "admiration" for the coyotes being "good at what they do" , (judging from what I have since found) those furry devils were dining, about a hundred yards from our front door, on our last little "friend".

Squeamish readers STOP HERE! Graphic description follows.

I think it was coyotes, rather than my neighbor's reported cougar, because the relatively-small carcass was nearly intact skeletally, with some small 'contents" dragged a short distance in several directions, as I imagine several coyotes feeding at the same time might have done. One curious thing; both ears were chewed-off, and lay a few feet apart, near the carcass, ... does anyone know whether-or-not this is "typical" coyote behavior? None of the major bones were "crunched", just the small (because of the size of the young deer) ribs. The haunches and legs didn't seem to have gotten much attention, but all the "choice" parts were gone, ... i.e. heart/lungs/liver/backstrap etc. (and eyes)

This took place in pasture-grass, so no tracks were evident. The deer was in-the-open, not dragged into cover, and no effort had been made to cover it with grass, brush, etc. I would appreciate comments from anyone familiar with coyote-kills, as I would be happier believing it was the work of known-to-be-in-the-area coyotes, than to think that a cougar is killing children-sized animals practically in-our-faces.

Reflecting since then, on the "predator" issue, it occurs to me that the coyotes may have been responsible, as they INCREASED in number over the years, for the decrease in deer 'visitors" to our place (now possibly down to ZERO). If in fact they HAVE "wiped-out" the local deer, and if mice do not suffice (with the occasional pet thrown in), the coyotes too will soon experience a decline in numbers, through starvation.

The end result? Fewer coyotes, and NO deer. "natural" population control at work.

Quite possibly, a little "pack" management applied selectively would have had PARTLY (only!) the same result,... fewer coyotes. And the deer wou;ld still be here, in some "balance" of numbers.

This situation seems to support the idea that the "maintenance" of some desirable (to us) balance can best be achieved by the wise application of "management", rather than the overpopulate/wipeout/start-over cycles which occur and re-occur "naturally" over-time.

In any event, "controlling" these predators with a rifle, is iffy-at-best. I believe a trapper used to work these woods, which probably kept the coyotes down a bit. The recent disfavor of that practise has likely discouraged it, and I have not heard of any in a long time, in this area.
As I said before, the coyotes can be heard now and then howling (in-numbers, and CLOSE) at night, ... but I have only actually seen 2 individuals in 10 years at this place. SNEAKY!

I suppose, if things continue in this way, the only "wildlife" remaining for us (or them!) to "enjoy" may someday be coyotes, ... and underfed, "poorly" ones at that!

Regarding the comment about the "trash and Bash" nature of this thread; I noted another post commented on its "civility". I agree with the latter.

I think that by-far the majority of posters on this thread (and on TBN generally) keep-sight-of the goal of courtesy and respect for one another, even through the most intense moments of discussion about controversial topics. This restores/maintains my faith in human nature much more than any "polite silence", which exchanges no ideas, increases no understanding, and changes no opinions. Courtesy for its own sake is 2nd-best to "grace under pressure", which is one definition of "CLASS".

Hats-off to TBN-members!

Larry

 

[Anonymous Poster]

MSullivan,

Just finished my most recent posting on this topic, and came back to find yours.

Since you chose a "quote" from my writing, for illustration, should I reasonably assume that your remark which followed, including a reference to "the enviro-****'s", was tossed in my direction(for one)?

[[[Always amazes me how the enviro-****'s so easily label humans and their actions as not part of the natural scheme of things.]]]

Speaking for myself only, and in the interest of accuracy, I certainly believe that the human animal is "part of the natural scheme-of-things".

Now about those actions, of which you have more to say:[[[" What counts is your actions and what is in your heart while your(sic) here. ".]]] .
When "actions" such as the destruction of the Everglades (of which I have first hand knowledge), the degradation nationally of our drinking-water supply, reckless over-harvesting-to-the-point-of-extinction of numerous species, genocidal "predation-by-gas-chamber" on our-own species, DDT, and enough etceteras to fill an encyclopedia, are considered, "what is in someone's heart" becomes very suspect( not-to-mention killing things "for fun", which was the real "spark" that ignited my comments at the time).

If such "actions" were "determined"(I don't happen to believe they are!), then I would only question the judgement of the "determiner".(Yes, I dare to do so, ... figure I was given this mind to "think-with"!)

You say you have done much for the environment. and so, are you then an "environmentalist"?
And at what point in your "doing for the environment", or expressing your concern-for-it, would you be willing to accept your own label of "enviro-****"? (speaking of "labeling")

[[[Personally, anything that affects the health, safety and welfare of my family will not be well received.]]]
Do you imagine that the health, safety and welfare of your family are NOT "affected" by such "actions as I have mentioned above (and elsewhere)?
If so, please tell us which ones.

If you have read the whole thread, I believe you will agree that no one is suggesting that you feed your children to a hungry bear, or any such personal sacrifice to the "welfare" of wildlife.

Incidentally, I believe CowboyDoc has presented his "slant" quite adequately, for himself, and done so without any mention of "nazis".

Are you perhaps too-young to have a real comprehension of what "nazis" really represented to many people, ... and therefore of what an insult you are delivering with your word-associations?

I respectfully suggest you consider the closing remarks of my post of a-few-minutes-ago("coyote irony"), when choosing descriptive-terms for other TBN members.

I'm not sure whether-or-not we would actually disagree, if we took real issues one-by-one.

But I expect you to understand that of [[["all the actions"]]] that you say [[[ "are part of the plan, ..."]]], this "name-calling" action of yours is likely to P___ someone off, ... putting it (is turnabout fair-play?) not-so-politely!

Larry

 

[GlueGuy]

Re: Rural Living?? coyote irony

Larry,

Don't know about your "coyote irony", but I can relate what we've seen where we live.

First a little background. Our 40 acres is surrounded by several thousand acres of "open space". The open space is protected from development, but does have trails over portions of it. The concept is to protect it from "traditional" development. Anyway, this means that all of the plants & animals are pretty much undisturbed from their natural habits.

We end up having all sorts of wild animals close to our house. This includes, but is not limited to the aforementioned coyotes, deer, rabbits, bobcats, mountain lions, wild turkey, and so on, and so on. It is not unusual at all for us to watch coyotes, deer or bobcats only a few feet from our door.

That said, we have never witnessed a coyote, or group of coyotes take a deer. I believe that they could (and probably do occasionally), but for the most part we can watch them throught the scope, and they seem to mainly be interested in mice & gophers. Same goes for bobcats.

Neighbors with dogs claim that the coyotes try to trick their dogs away from the homestead area. This may be true, but I don't know what the coyotes motives are. At any rate, even though the dogs will go with the coyotes for a while, they have not harmed anyone's dogs (yet).

Last year, my wife was walking down our hillside, and came across a deer (young doe) carcase. She had her leather gloves in her pack, and was curious, so she put them on, and turned the animal over to see if it had been attacked (it was _very_ shortly after the animal had died, as it was still warm, and flexible).

She found no marks of trauma whatever. No blood, no torn flesh, nothing. She could only assume that the deer had died of natural causes.

She & I went back the next morning (< 18 hours later), and most of the animal was gone. The only remaining portions were the skull, most of the front legs, and most of the chest area (minus the innards).

I went back the day after that, and the cleanup process was nearly complete. All the remaining parts had been "broken up" and scattered over a pretty wide area (~~ 100' radius). Of the remaining parts, we found turkey vultures and a couple of juvenile bald eagles fighting for bits. It was very interesting (at least to me) to see how fast the process took.

The GlueGuy

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: Rural Living?? coyote irony

Glue Guy,

Sounds like a nice place to live.
I'm wondering whether the amount of "wild" land surrounding your place allows for a breeding-base of sufficient numbers of (let's say deer) to not be reduced significantly by the occasional loss to coyotes or other natural causes.

While in our case, the smaller "buffer"(200-300 acres?) may have only supported a smaller number of deer, that could not sustain many losses without serious "herd reduction".

There are numerous wooded areas around here, but our "local" woods are pretty-much encircled by farmhouses and /or rural homesites. So the local deer may be a relatively penned-up quarry for any would-be predators.

The 2 or 3 roadkills we have every year-or-so could also be tipping- the-scales.

Anyway, natural or otherwise, we hate to see the deer totally disappear.

Our place is at a much lower elevation (+/- 600') on the Willamette Valley side of the Coast range, west of Salem, Oregon.

Larry

 

[GlueGuy]

Re: Rural Living?? coyote irony

<font color=blue>I'm wondering whether the amount of "wild" land surrounding your place allows for a breeding-base of sufficient numbers of (let's say deer) to not be reduced significantly by the occasional loss to coyotes or other natural causes.</font color=blue>

That's certainly possible/probable. In the fall when the deer and their hormones get each other in trouble, there are more (dead) deer by the side of the road than you can count. In fact, my wife ran over one while I was riding shotgun. We saw him by the side of the road as we approached, and as we got closer, he actually started running away from the road. He spun and turned a 180 at the worst-possible last second.

I saw him in the headlights for a fraction of a second, and he was gone. It's like we hit a speed bump at 45mph. My wife was seriously shook up, and I was a bit dazzled myself./w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

I had a pair of workgloves in the back of the car, put them on, and dragged what was left of a young 5-point buck off the road.

A bit off-topic there, but maybe not.... Anyway, there are enough deer around here that if the coyotes ate on a few here & there, we might not notice. That said, outside of the near open-space are still several working ranches. They have many head of cattle, but I don't see anybody going around and having to deal with all the "predators" around here. To me, it looks like a healthy ecosystem.

The GlueGuy

 

[JOR_EL]

Re: Rural Living?? coyote irony/Springtime

Having found two dead coons in our yard within a week-or-so, along with the coyote-killed(we think) yearling doe that had been our "friend and lawn decoration" for the past year, we were begining to think we lived in a slaughterhouse with a curse over us (and it smelled like it,too!)

With that recent background, an occurence yesterday afternoon really got my attention;

I had come in from working at putting up pallet-racks in my shop, to make a sandwich. I was at the counter next to the screen door of our 5th-wheeler, when the WHRRRRR! of a flushing covey of quail made me jump /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif . They had taken off very close, maybe 25-30 feet from the door, and as I looked up to see them leave, I caught sight of a reddish brown blur on the ground. Bending over, I could see under some limbs through some brush that he had run into, and it looked like a very young coyote. "Probably still young enough to be a clumsy hunter!", I thought.

Not entirely pleased that he had come so close to the pen where we let our cats get some outside-time, I began to (hopefully) sneak close enough to get a better look, and maybe give him a scare to teach him better manners /w3tcompact/icons/mad.gif .

I did get close, and did get a better look. Much better!

My "coyote" was a beautiful new spotted-fawn!! Looked maybe a day-or-two old. It must have stumbled on the quail while exploring its new world a little /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif.

Saw the mother a little later that evening. She apparently chose the enclosed area with our circular drive "turn-around" ( maybe a 250' dia. circle with some tall grass and shrub trees mixed with larger ones) as a relatively coyote-free zone. Hope she's right.

Anyway, the sight of the little fawn was one of those "does your heart good" things. Wonder if it has a twin?

Sure makes it seem more like Spring. Goes with the beautiful weather we're having, and the new leaves and singing birds all around.

Maybe the curse is gone! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Happy new year!

Larry

 

[scruffy]

Re: Rural Living?? coyote irony

GlueGuy, your experience reminded me of a similar one of my own. I had just returned from a 350 mile trip home from my Dad's, slowed down to 20/25 mph to make the turn off the highway when I spotted a fourpoint at the side of the road. He made a quick turn, raced out into the road and broadsided my car. His chin flattened the top of the fender, front shoulder caved in the fender just to the rear of the front fender well, and his rear hip swung around and caved in the door! To add insult to injury, he got up and continued on his merry way. The worst part though, was I had just put that fender on the week before (just before going up to my Dad's) and hadn't even had a chance to paint it yet! Wound up replacing the fender and door skin, and considered all of us lucky.